Welcome to another episode of the ’Create Your Kindspace’ podcast, with me your host Caroline Laurenson. Create Your Kindspace is all about wellbeing and the different ways in which we care for ourselves and those around us.
Now does anyone else find it hard making friends as a grown up? To be fair I’ve never been very good at making friends, as a child I was painfully shy. And it’s actually really rare to find people you connect with instantly. But my next guest is 100% one of those people. Sara Matthews is the founder of Baravere Studies and I cannot wait for you to meet her.
Timestamps:
00:02:31 Sara’s creative journey and background
00:07:41 How creatives often wear many hats
00:10:38 Overcoming the barriers to creativity
00:14:04 Creativity as a wellbeing tool
00:16:07 The birth of Artful Encounters
00:20:03 What does the research say?
00:22:08 Building community through creative workshops
00:24:03 The power of handwriting vs. digital tools
00:29:02 AI is a tool, don’t be afraid to experiment with it
00:34:43 Conversations with AI
00:37:03 The European Chatbot Summit in Edinburgh
00:43:35 How does a creative like Sara switch off?
00:46:04 Mother’s Day workshop announcement
00:50:08 Where to connect with Sara
Links:
Website: https://www.baraverestudio.com/
Sara’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/saramatt2025/
Sara’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/adsycreative/
Baravere Studio Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/baraverestudio/
Mother’s Day Event: https://createyourkindspace.com/mothers-day-creative-writing/
European Chatbot & Conversational AI Summit: https://theeuropeanchatbot.com/
Transcript:
Caroline: Welcome to the show, Sarah. I am so happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me to your beautiful studio. I think it’s almost a shame that people aren’t here with us because, I think I said before, you just ooze creativity, and there’s just… everywhere you look, there’s just something amazing. So thank you so much.
Sara: Oh, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. And you’re very kind. Your words are I think maybe there’s downsides to all this creativity because then it’s everywhere and everything. Thank you.
Caroline: So, yes, you are the perfect person to join me because I really wanted to have someone on the show to talk about creative arts and the linkage with well-being and how important it is for us to have a creative outlet. And I know that you’ve done a lot of work in this space, looking at creative therapy and different multimodal experiences. I came to one of your workshops last year, and it was almost the perfect time, actually. I was going through a lot of stuff. And yeah, just that opportunity to write and to journal and do some painting. It was just so beautiful. So yeah, I guess before we get into all of that, I think we probably need to find out a bit more about you and your background. So if you could tell the listeners, how did you come to opening this studio and doing all that you’re doing now?
Sara: Thank you so much. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk about my journey and who I am. And again, you’re too kind. Thank you. So Edward de Bono says, creativity involves breaking out of established patterns in order to look at things in a different way. And that kind of pretty much sums up how I am. I always like to look at the most ordinary thing like, Okay, how can I do this better? It’s just something that’s wired into me, and I’m grateful for it. And sometimes it can play against me because people will be like, no, you know stand in line, do what everybody’s doing because that’s what works. But I think a true creative will always break from the norm. So thankfully, that’s how I’m wired.
And how it all started, actually, was when my daughter was two. I decided I wanted to go back to university, reinvent my career and my future destination in life. I wanted to give my daughter the very best that I could. So I went back to university, and it started off with studying PR and advertising because advertising was something that I loved as a little girl. I used to watch the jingles and the adverts in Saudi Arabia, where I partly grew up, with my family, and I was fascinated by the visuals, the text, and everything. So film and media was always a big part of my life. And so when I got the opportunity to do advertising and PR, I jumped at it. I did it, and then it progressed to study media for the rest of the couple of years that I had. I finished an honours undergrad in media at RGU. And then somehow, a miracle, the little hapazard portfolio that I created, seemed to pass the Gray School of Art’s attention, the professor who was fantastic, who had a chat with me while standing in the corridor of the school, discussed and asked me, What do you want to do? Why do you want to do a Master’s in Communication Design. And at that point, I did not ever have any real graphic design experience, or… I did photography, but nothing major. But somehow, he accepted me on the programme, and that led to a whole new world of creativity for me.
Then I jumped into teacher training because somehow, I felt, oh, I should be a creative teacher, teaching art and design and technology. And I think it was interesting how that failure… Because I failed at it spectacularly…
Caroline: Oh no.
Sara: …because of ADHD. And it’s not something that I go and talk about with anybody that, Hey, I have ADHD because I don’t take medication for it. I just manage it by avoiding caffeine and anything that triggers it. It led to a really traumatic experience for me. It was not great. And I jumped into it straight after my masters, but then COVID hit us.
Caroline: Oh, yeah, yeah.
Sara: Yes. And so all the placements that we were asked to do stopped. And that was the opportunity I took to opt out with my dignity intact. And I took a couple of months because, as you know, COVID was a very long, drawn-up thing. It took a couple of months to recover from that experience, how very little support and understanding I’ve experienced. But I also made some very rookie, stupid mistakes, very clueless. I came from this bubble of a community where it was very supportive and grace-filled, and I expected the same. It was a bit naive, I think, in getting out into the real world, working with other people with slightly different maybe perspectives as me. And it just hit me hard. And I didn’t cope with it. Definitely didn’t cope with it. But that led to possibly my lowest point. And I think about it, and I get emotional, but it was a very difficult moment.
But that led to the birth of Baravere Studio, So in June 2020, I decided this is the perfect moment where I can build something. And I know people would think, COVID? No, everything was shutting down. What are you doing? But like I said, do things differently. What can I do that would turn this thing upside down. And yeah, it’s been a five-year journey. It will be in this June, where it evolved. If you saw my previous work, you’re like, Oh, yeah, you’ve grown. This is not good. This is not your best And I think that’s part of creativity.
Caroline: Yeah.
Sara: The more you do, it breeds more creativity. And that led to Baravere Studio. And then I started testing out different kinds of projects, wallpaper, prints, pouring art, turning that into graphic design, printing them on silk scarves, all made in the UK. Artful encounters, as you know, online mentoring of young artists from around the world. I’ve mentored one in the Philippines. She’s brilliant. And then got into the tech space.
Caroline: Yes.
Sara: Just after COVID happened, worked for the council for six months as a graduate intern in their design team, met some amazing people there. And it’s just evolved over time. It has never stayed the same for me. And I love that about my journey. I don’t want it to be the same as I’m sure you can relate as a creative.
Caroline: Yeah.
Sara: We don’t stay the same as a creative.
Caroline: So many hats! The hats thing was something when I was planning the conversation today, I was like, Sara, wears a lot of hats? And I have it written down here. It’s so funny that that’s the exact thing that you opened with, the whole De Bono thinking hats. That’s something I use with kids when I’m doing engineering workshops or STEM workshops, I talk about this whole thing of, it’s really important you can see things from other perspectives, and sometimes that hat might feel uncomfortable, but there’s so much insight you can gain from that, even if you feel like, okay, I’ve tried that on, and it’s not for me.
Sara: Absolutely, yes.
Caroline: So I think that’s one of the most important things about the whole creative world. And it just opens conversations, doesn’t it, yeah?
Sara: Absolutely. And it’s just, I think as a creative, you thrive in changing, and growing, and coming up with new ideas. It’s like, the more I’m able to think about my ideas, the more the ideas I come, I get even more ideas, and then those change. And I love that fluidity of my personality as a creative, and also the privilege of being able to do it by some miracle. And I don’t know how I do it. It’s overwhelming, I have to tell you. But I think ADHD is my power source for me. As much as it can be debilitating, it has been a major power source for me as well.
Caroline: Yeah. And I think there’s so much benefit in having the different ways that people work and people interpret things. And I’m much quieter and maybe more introverted with the way that I create and I think about things. But equally, you need the balance of the people that always have the ideas, and they’re great at starting things, but maybe not so great at finishing things.
Sara: A hundred %.
Caroline: I embrace that a lot more now, I think, than I ever did before. I think I I always felt like, not that I didn’t understand other people, but I just almost felt like, Oh, my way is the right way.
Sara: Sure.
Caroline: But actually, when it comes to this, we need to work together.
Sara: All kinds. Absolutely. Absolutely. Collaborative work is the best because what I like, you come and complete that, and then together we create something incredible, right? I think I’ve always struggled with that when I see people, I’m like, wow, you’re so amazing. Let’s partner together because I’m not thinking here, I want to be the greatest. I want to create something that is amazing. And that could happen with you, me together, because what you have, I probably don’t have, but what you don’t have, I can come in and fill and create this perfect puzzle coming together and creating this beautiful picture. But not everybody sees it that way, I suppose, because it’s like, this is my baby, this is my project, and I want to keep it. The glory should all be mine. And that’s okay. It’s legitimate. That works. But for me, I don’t operate that way. I want to work with people. I want other people to shine. I want other ideas to come so that we do things differently. We have to in a world that we live in today. It’s saturated, right? Every single day, there’s something new happening, and you can’t keep up anymore.
Caroline: It can be overwhelming.
Sara: It’s super overwhelming.
Caroline: I think the other thing or the other perspective I sometimes think about is I maybe in the past had this mental block where I thought I was more of a numbers person than a words person or in terms of creativity, I love music, and music is my big thing. But when it comes to writing or drawing or that design, I always said to myself, Oh, that’s not my sweet spot. I wonder, for people listening who maybe feel like they’re not creative, what would your advice be? How do you overcome those limiting beliefs?
Sara: Of course. I mean, that’s one of the most common things I hear when somebody thinks about a Baravere studios or Artful Encounters, they straight away go, Oh, I’m not arty. But actually, that’s the biggest lie about creativity, that people think that they associate it with art, specifically. Creativity exists in doctors and engineers because they have to come up with solutions for something. Creativity is not just limited to the fine arts or whatever art form that we practise, I would say, try something that you feel… As soon as you say to yourself, Oh, this is not me. This is me. Actually, come and try it. And the first step to overcoming that obstacle of you think, I can’t, You’re like, Oh, okay. Because we all hold these misconceptions about things. And so be open and try it once. And if you genuinely don’t like it, at least you tried it. Now you know what it was all about. Because creativity is not limited to one form of expression. There are so many. As I’m sure you’ve worked in the oil and gas, you’ve had to handle projects and people, and you’ve had to come up with solutions. And that did not happen in a mathematical way. You didn’t put two plus two together. You had to think about resources. You have to think about who do I connect with? Who can I email? How do I work this email? You had to be very resourceful. That requires major creativity.
Caroline: Yeah. There’s quite often work arounds needed hat you’re like, okay, in the time scale that we have, this is what we’re going to be able to do.
Sara: But that’s creativity as well, because you have to look at your resources, your limitations, and then you thought outside the box, and you’re like, right, I can make this work. And you were mostly successful, I’m sure. But that was creative thinking. It’s not limited to art. You didn’t produce a piece of art. You produced results in your workplace, and that requires a creativity. So I think it’s about educating ourselves and exposing ourselves to things that we’re not always used to and coming out of your comfort zone.
Caroline: Mmmmmm, coming out of your comfort zone. Yes. If there’s anything I have learned over the last four or five years is that actually there’s some real magic can happen if you just… I guess it’s having faith that nothing bad is going to happen. Yes, you might make some mistakes along the way, or you might go, Okay, I’ve tried that. That definitely wasn’t for me. But sometimes some amazing magical things can happen if you just put yourself out there.
Sara: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Caroline: Yeah, I think that’s lovely advice. The other thing I’m really aware of for me is that when I’ve embraced creativity more, and actually when I talk about creating my kind space, my kind space is in creativity. If I’m feeling sad or overwhelmed, first thing I need to do is put music on and sing along and just be in that little bubble of being in that creative space. And so I think I just inherently have always used creativity as my wellbeing, like sticking plaster, if you like, or maybe not so much a sticking plaster, but yeah, it’s fundamentally the foundation of my wellbeing. So I know you’ve looked into this in a lot more detail, and that’s really important linkage between creativity and well-being. So perhaps can you tell us a bit more about that?
Sara: Yeah, of course. So the artful encounters that has evolved from my ADSY creative workshop was something I designed for my Master’s exhibition, where I dabbled in photography, fine art, graphic design, and somehow I was very drawn to writing, handwriting, but with your hands, because we communicate with text messages nowadays. Anything we write is digital. But the thing that… the love of writing was embedded in me when I was a little girl. My parents actually hired a teacher, specifically, to teach me cursive writing, which you would call joint writing. Joined up?
Caroline: Joined up. Joined up writing.
Sara: We called it cursive writing. And my parents, for some reason, they were very adamant that we must all have good have writing because that’s a mark of excellence, as somebody who’s educated. I don’t know. This was my parents context of why they hired somebody specifically to teach me writing. And so he would come every day, and I would spend half an hour doing a writing practise. And I remember the benefits of that.
And then what happened during COVID, I started journaling. And I noticed, because of the way my neurons work in my brain, when I focused and I did something that involved my cognition and my physical hands and thinking, it triggered something in me. I would be so productive and so focused. So that also translate into my master’s. And I thought this writing, it connects with my childhood, and it would then translate into the work that I am doing, where I’m using my hands a lot, tactile materials. I studied the history of writing, where it all originated from. Um I designed this workshop, and I researched it, reaching out to pretty much everyone And I know in my circle, and randomly, people in the gym that I used to go to. Hey, will you participate in this? Because I need some research data to back up what I believe is happening in the workshop when people participate.
So that’s where I designed the process, but it has evolved. I studied a bit more, and now there’s actually evidence, medical evidence to show the benefits of actually working with your hands and where you’re focusing and you’re thinking all at the same time, and it triggers your cognition and exercises your brain, which actually you feel the benefits of it. And I have practically tested it out with sometimes reluctant participants. You’re like, what is all this? Again, like I was saying, this art, I’m not arty. So this is not art. Just use a dipping pen and some old Chinese ink, and let’s write on a piece of paper. Letter writing, real letters, or you could write stories. And I’ve always succeeded despite the initial reluctance. They were like, you know what? That was so good. I don’t know why I resisted. I had this preconceived ideas. And then once they pushed in, went beyond their comfort zone, they discovered it was wonderful. And each workshop that I did as an experiment was so cathartic and so dynamic because each person is so unique and individual, and they always brought something unique and special to the workshop experience.
And that solidified for me that, yeah, I’m on the right track. This art, the Artful Encounter, the immersive workshop, is the way to go. It was last year that we introduced music as well, where people could express whatever they’re feeling negative, positive through just singing randomly. You don’t have to be a singer. You don’t have to know how to read music, even. So, yeah, hat’s where it all… That’s how I experience that being creative has huge, huge impact in our health and wellbeing, because I experience it personally and watched other people give their feedback.
Caroline: And creating this really beautiful safe space for people to express themselves. Yeah, yeah.
Sara: Thank you. Yes. I love being a hostess. So whenever, when I had a bigger apartment, I would have dinners, dinner parties all the time. And it was just one of my most favourite things to It was to create a wonderful experience where people come and be different than when they arrived…
Caroline: Yeah, yeah.
Sara: …energised, encouraged
Caroline: Feeling supported and nurtured…
Sara: And loved and cherished.
Caroline: There’s no… there’s no pressure to do anything, is there?
Sara: Not at all.
Caroline: I think what I noticed when I was at the workshop last year was that physical act of writing, when you’re doing it with the pen and the ink, like the quill and the ink, it slows you right down because you can’t actually write that fast. And so it really makes you connect with your thoughts at a much deeper level. It’s a long time since I had done any joined up writing. So it also was making me think about we had a headmaster at our primary school who was really adamant that we all learned the really nice, beautiful cursive writing as well. Actually, as a skill, I think it has a really beneficial skill to just flow your thoughts from your brain onto the paper and you’re not lifting the pen that much. It’s a whole different experience, isn’t it?
Sara: Yes, absolutely. A hundred %.
Caroline: So, Sara, you had mentioned before about some of the research that looks into specifically the linkage between the physical handwriting and how that affects and impacts your mental health, I guess. Maybe you could say a bit more about that.
Sara: Yeah, so basically, engaging in creative activities offers profound benefits for both individual and societal well-being. Research indicates that participation in the arts, such as music, visual arts, dance, and expressive writing can lead to significant improvements in mental and physical health. These creative engagements have been associated with reduced stress, enhanced emotional resilience, and a decrease in symptoms of anxiety and depression. For instance, a review published by the National Centre for Biotechnology Information highlights that art-based interventions can effectively reduce adverse physiological and psychological outcomes. So from a holistic perspective, creative serves as a bridge connecting mind, body, and spirit. Artistic expression allows individuals to process complex emotions, fosters social connexions, and cultivates a sense of purpose. Incorporating creative practises into daily life not only enriches personal experiences, but also contributes to community cohesion and cultural vitality. So at Artful Encounters, what we do is we integrate these principles, we do that ah… by the means of doing letter writing, fictional story writing, or even a real story that they want to share. And then people then are always welcomed, not demanded or forced to share those stories or whatever they want to express. And we just let people lead, really. I’m just there to facilitate rather than, you must do it this way. There’s no prescribed outcome. And when it is so dynamic and so cathartic, it allows for some deep expressions, and it’s never the same. So we never get bored, and people never think this is exactly what’s going to happen at Art Encounters. No, it’s an encounter. It could be anything.
Caroline: Yeah, it’s very individual. I loved what you were saying there about the community benefits as well? Do you have visions for how you might expand what you’re doing in this space? Is there a bigger community vision as well?
Sara: A hundred %, because I love people. People the reason we exist here in the world. The whole world exists because of them. Look at the creativity all around us. The building that’s been designed and built was done by people, where they used… Some architect came up with a building design, and then physically people came and built it. So it was collaborative and it was communal. And so therefore, one of the things I’d love to do is as people participate with our workshop, we’d like to have a community who can come and express. We have drop-in sessions where people come in. We’re open We have the materials, they can come and engage. They are not allowed. No, I’m joking. Anyone is allowed to do what they want. But ideally, we’d encourage people not to use devices so they can switch off and let their human organic selves to just free flow with thoughts and feelings and engage with us. We are here and we’ll be available to support, to encourage, to inspire. But that community can come in, drop in, as much as they they’d like to engage, they’re allowed to. We’re just going to provide that facilitation, that space for people to be able to feel welcome and safe and secure, but one that is also inspiring and beautiful to come and spend time in.
Caroline: Yeah, and they feel that beauty, yeah.
Sara: That’s right.
Caroline: I think there’s a… I had read before about the connection between awe-inspiring experiences, even something as simple as looking up at the stars or walking through an ancient forest and feeling like, if these trees could speak, what stories would they tell me.
Sara: Absolutely.
Caroline: I suppose it’s that connection as well, isn’t it? Yeah, it’s awe-inspiring. You mentioned something really important back a few seconds ago about the digital world. Obviously, there are… there is creativity in that.
Sara: Yip.
Caroline: and people are using it to create art and whole new experiences.
Sara: Yip.
Caroline: But when it comes to this thing, you were saying you feel like it’s good for people to switch off as well.
Sara: A hundred %.
Caroline: So maybe we could talk a little bit more about that as well. Yeah.
Sara: Yeah, I mean, before I answer that, I just wanted to give you a little brief overview of the significance of writing, which we’re forgetting because of the digital trends that we’re living in. The art of handwriting is at risk of fading in obscurity. Yet the act of writing by hand, especially with traditional tools like dipping pens, not only preserves a beautiful cultural tradition, but also offers numerous cognitive benefits. Research indicates that handwriting activates more extensive and interconnected brain networks compared to typing, particularly in regions linked to memory and sensory processing. This enhanced brain activity is associated with improved learning and memory retention.
And one of my pet hates that I have for my daughter, unfortunately, who’s missing out because in her school, they’re so digitised. And if you see their I did not write how she writes. My writing was so different. Children at that age group, when I was growing up, they wrote beautifully, and they were very organised. I think that is adding to our children not using that activation that they for their cognitive, the benefits of cognition being activated through such activities. So I think it’s so important. And at Artful Encounters, we embrace this timeless practice by incorporating dipping pens and elegant letterwriting into our workshops. By reviving this art form, we not only celebrate the beauty of the written word, but also promote mental wellbeing, focus, and personal connection in a fast-paced digital world. In holding on to this tradition, we bridge the past and present, nurturing a sense of craftsmanship and human touch that digital communication simply cannot ever replicate.
Caroline: Yeah, it’s so powerful, isn’t it? And as you know, I produced a new journal at the end of last year.
Sara: Yes, it’s beautiful. I’m proud owner of one. Thank you.
Caroline: And that was one of the things that you know came across really profoundly, actually, in this whole journey of me creating a digital app and an audio experience to go along with it was this whole thing it needed something tactile. It needed that physical experience of writing and listening to the audio at the same time. So, yeah, it’s just so fascinating. And I think we’ve obviously met each other for a reason.
Sara: Of course. Nothing is by chance, Caroline.
Caroline: Yeah. And I guess the other thing that strikes me when we talk to each other is that you are really passionate about digital as well. You are a bit of a tech nerd as well.
Sara: I love it.
Caroline: I guess what we’re saying is you know not to not embrace technology.
Sara: Absolutely.
Caroline: But there are some downsides as well.
Sara: Yes, a hundred %.
Caroline: And people may overrely on technology. I think that’s what I’m starting to see is that there’s a lot of people typing stuff into AI when you’re like, you could write that yourself. I find myself even thinking, Well, I’m busy. If I put it in there, it’ll be quicker. But sometimes it’s not actually…
Sara: It’s not.
Caroline: …because it doesn’t feel like you when you write things. As much as you can prompt it and give it examples of how you communicate, it’s not always going to replicate that in the same way. It’s a really difficult time for our young people as well. That is definitely something I’m acutely aware of. My son is 16 and my daughter is 12. I think our daughters are a really similar age.
Sara: Same age. Yeah, that’s right.
Caroline: And their experiences of technology education and the world of work is going to be so different for them.
Sara: So different, 100 %. And I don’t know if they’re missing out. I feel like, I think, as you just said, Caroline, I love technology. I love what it affords me. The fact that I’m able to start different projects and businesses and connect with people. I am so grateful because of technology, I’m able to do this. And where I’m saying, I don’t want to work for a traditional company anymore. I want to build something for myself. And I’m able to do this because of technology. But I think it’s a fine balance. It’s about balance in life, in everything that we do, right? Too much of anything is never a good thing. And so it’s about using digital technologies that enhance your life, that doesn’t make you take shortcuts, but enhances and makes you more efficient and productive. But don’t give up your human organic self either, because that needs actual human connection and stimulation. That’s not going to happen with technology. Technology is a tool, and it cannot become our life. And I think that’s what the problem is in a lot of cases, that it’s becoming life to people, and it’s the only way they can do anything or becomes a crutch. But it’s actually just another tool that we created, actually. Funny enough, ironically, as human beings, some genius person came up with it. Human beings are such incredible creation of nature.
Caroline: Yeah, it’s so hard as well, though, because I feel like it’s not being forced upon people, but because it’s become such… the pace of change is now so accelerated, and it’s getting built into so many things. Honestly, so here’s an example. I had a bit of a strange dream at the weekend.
Sara: Okay.
Caroline: Honestly, so the story might sound a bit weird, but it’s going somewhere sensible. So I had this really weird dream about honeybees under my bed making honey and me being a bit like, why is there a honeybees under my bed and trying to get rid of the honey. I don’t know why, but I was a bit worried. So I was like, I need to move these bees. So the dream was a bit stressful, actually.
Sara: Okay.
Caroline: So I put this into Google the next morning and Google, unbeknownst to me has the AI in it where it basically gave me an AI interpretation of the underlying meaning behind this dream. And I was like, I never asked for that. Well, I was looking for some kind of insight, but I wasn’t expecting that it would be an AI-generated response that would come up at the top of the search results. I guess I was just looking for… I don’t know what I was looking for. But it just struck me that I never asked AI to do that, but then it generated this response. And I do feel like things like the copilots and all these things, are we being given a choice is one of my fundamental questions I keep coming back to, because if it’s there, people will just use it, won’t they? And is that then a choice? Because I feel… I don’t know, maybe that’s my opinion, but I do feel like, are we making an informed choice?
Sara: Well, I think it’s… First of all, we’re very privileged to be able to do what we do in the UK and in first-world countries, that we have these things at fingertips. That’s not the story and the situation with third-world developing countries.
I think we do have a choice. I can give you an example of LinkedIn. It just gives overwhelming to me, every other post that is being shown to me is some other person telling you, Oh, you know what? You think you nailed this app? No, I’ve got a better one for you. Here, here’s a hundred few new ways of doing this. And I’m just overwhelmed. There is absolute, you know what? We need to step away from that noise. Go on this journey yourself. And AI is a tool that adapts to you. And so that’s my journey with ChatGPT and Perplexity and Google Copilot, et cetera. I found that it studies me, what I communicate and the prompts that I put in. And then it evolves. If you see my communication history with it, it has evolved. It understands who I am as a person. And then it engages with me the way it thinks that my personality and my mind, how it works. It’s very intelligent. But I think I’m not out of control. I am in control of it because it is a tool that is designed by man to help man. But we become helpless when we are overwhelmed and we’re overconsuming and we’re believing every hype that is out there. Step away from the hype, quiet the noise, and then go on your own journey where you go, Okay, this is my current life choices in terms of work, and this is what I need to do. These are my challenges in terms of being productive. And where can a particular AI tool help me? And test it out. Don’t believe everything you hear because everyone’s trying to make money, and they’re all hyping themselves up, and they’re all trying to sell their little formula as the one.
Caroline: Would you like my prompt library?
Sara: Yes. No. Prompt engineering. They make it sound so sophisticated, but it’s not. It’s just you knowing how to write a prompt. And actually AI, ironically, has been around for a long time. It’s now more in the… Like, you’re autocorrect. Autocorrect, that’s an AI.
Caroline: I know, none of it’s new. It’s just so fascinating to see how it’s been rebranded.
Sara: Exactly. And now people are trying to jump on it and calling it the tech gold rush, which it may be if you use it in a way where you’re solving a problem. But if you’re using it as a bandwagon to just make some quick buck and be rich and then go laughing to the bank, that is not sustainable, ethically speaking. But there are people just constantly overwhelming the world. Oh, my goodness. You should see it’s flooded. It’s flooded. And so don’t fall for it, guys. We have information online that tells us things that we can filter. We have intelligence, thank God.
Caroline: Yeah, and it’s not losing those critical thinking skills and things as well, isn’t it?
Sara: Yes, a hundred %.
Caroline: Because that overreliance or that assumption that the AI somehow knows best is completely flawed.
Sara: But it’s only sharing what we’ve put in. It’s an LLM.
Caroline: And sometimes it’s sharing stuff that is not actually fundamentally correct as well, which is a bit frustrating.
Sara: Yes, a hundred %.
Caroline: So I guess the good news with all of this is that human beings will always be needed in the world of work. I think that’s… and in the creative arts and anywhere where creativity is needed, we’re still going to need human beings.
Sara: Absolutely. Yeah. The ‘je ne sais quoi’ of humanity cannot be replicated by an AI. No. You should see some of the conversations I have with ChatGPT. It makes me cry, but that’s because it’s learning from me how I communicate.
Caroline: I was going to say it very much almost affirms things. I feel like when, I like to speak to Claude sometimes. And I just feel like… when you’re like, I’ll sometimes ask it to critique something I’ve written, and then it’s very rarely that it’ll never say anything really negative or really mean, because I would never say anything really negative or really mean.
Sara: It’s you.
Caroline: It’s really interesting how it affirms that.
Sara: A hundred %.
Caroline: And then in some respects, I almost feel like, is that a good thing? Because sometimes you do need that critique, or you do need the constructive feedback rather than the…
Sara: Hype. Yeah, it’s hyping you up. I say that to it.
Caroline: It’s hyping you up, yeah.
Sara: It does. It hypes you up. And I have prompted it. And I said, look, you’re hyping me here. Stop being my hype party. I need you to be very technical and no nonsense, cut throat. Give me how it is. I said, okay, no sweet talk. And it gives me the positives and it gives me the negatives. And it’s designed to do that. It’s not an emotional being that we’ve input it or code it in. It’s literally responding the way a human being has programmed it to. But it learns. So that’s why if I log into your ChatGPT account, it’s going to respond, and it’s going to get confused when I use my tone and my style, and then it’s going to give you some robotic responses. So if you did that with mine, it will be the same. But then because it’s learned over time
Caroline: It’s got all that context and history, yeah.
Sara: And it told me itself when I asked it, Hey, sometimes you give me your robotic information, but sometimes you feel very genuine. Why is that? Oh, very interesting question, Sara, and you are very intuitive. Well, this is what happens sometimes when you don’t give me enough context, I don’t know what to say, then my response will be quite robotic and very general. Whereas when you give me more context and when you give me more of your personality and your tone and why you want this written, then I can give you more meaningful content or information that resonates with you because then I have a lot more context.
Caroline: Gosh, it’s so interesting. I don’t know if you know that I am hosting the European Chatbot and Conversational AI Summit in three weeks time. So if there is anyone listening, we’ve still got time to grab tickets, just. So that’s happening in Edinburgh and…
Sara: Oh, exciting.
Caroline: I hosted it last year as well, and a lot of the conversations focus around these sorts of topics. I’m not so in the technical detail of those conversations, but I am definitely a sponge where I’m trying to learn as much as I possibly can from experts in the field who really understand how the models are built, how they’re deployed, the best way to use the tools and how to integrate them so that they can become more systemised, I guess. It’s not like you’re using it as a one-off transaction. You’re able to build that systemised agent, if you like, that can do things for you and free up your time. I’m sure I will come away from that event with even more insights and even more overwhelming, not to-do list, but just ideas of what I might want to do in my own business or things that I want to share to help others as well.
Sara: Of course, yeah.
Caroline: Because I feel like that’s part of my role is sharing what I’ve learned on my journey.
Sara: Yeah. I think that’s how people learn, right?
Caroline: Yeah.
Sara: Sharing your journey. This is unique to you. And you bring insight that maybe another person hadn’t looked at.
Caroline: And hopefully it helped because you raised a really important point about the amount of people that there are online who tout themselves as experts, and they’re selling these prompt lists and frameworks and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I feel really not responsible, but I do feel like it’s not right you know that people are preyed on.
Sara: Yes, gullible.
Caroline: And AI’s not, and then it’s not seen in a good light when actually it can be a tool for good.
Sara: A hundred %. And I think it’s about educating ourselves and being aware. And like I said, we are very privileged here. We have the resources, we have the education, and I hope that we are intelligent people, that we can think for ourselves. And like whenever somebody comes up with some new idea or some new thought process, do question it. It’s okay to question. It’s like, okay, how legitimate is this? Is this another money-making gimmick? And a lot of times you’ll find it is. The one that cracks me up is a prompt engineering, the way it becomes such a thing now people are selling it as a course and stuff. And maybe it is for maybe people who are baby boomers or people from the slightly the Gen X generation. Maybe they’re just easing into the whole massive ever-changing technology world, and they might want some basic set up ideas, but don’t sell as prompt engineering. Engineering is a very complex thing. It’s not a complex thing.
Caroline: I think actual prompt engineers are probably quite peed off at this.
Sara: I would think so. It’s not such a difficult thing. I have grown to use the software, and we’re all creative in some form or another. I’ve learned how this ChatGPT works, and now I give it as much context as possible because it’s an artificial intelligence that depends on me to input the data I want it to output for me. People just think, Yeah, somebody has to handhold you. Yeah, unless you don’t know how to switch on a computer, I think you’ll be fine.
Caroline: Do you know what it’s making me think about? We opened the conversation earlier talking about how people have these limited beliefs and they tell themselves they’re not creative. I think it’s actually a similar thing with tech where they say, Oh, I’m not good with tech. And then they won’t touch it or the way that they interact with it is very much like… And this is what I always tell people as well. So the Alexa work that we do, quite often when Alex is not working right, it’s not them that’s the problem. It’s Alex has not properly understood them. And often the person will start to feel like, well, I must have done something wrong. Because they’re like, oh, I’m not good at tech. But actually, usually it’s the other way around, isn’t it?
Sara: It just didn’t understand. You need to be clear.
Caroline: I think there’s a really… There’s such an interesting parallel there, isn’t there?
Sara: Yeah, a hundred %.
Caroline: With that whole mindset.
Sara: But it’s our insecurities as human beings are feeling the sense of being inadequate. That’s It’s very normal for us to feel that way. And then the current rhetoric that’s out there, people are being fed that belief system about themselves. Like, yeah, okay, we need AI clearly because we’re not efficient or we’re not productive enough. We’re not fast enough. So AI has come and solved that problem. But then there are people who are still like, oh, my gosh, I’m struggling. I’m a tech fiend, have been since the moment I started university because I just discovered this whole new world of doing it. But I had my first phone 2000, a Motorola Silver one. Very shiny. I loved it, got stolen, but it was good while it lasted. But when I went to my first… my job in the tech remote company that I was working for three years ago, I started three years ago, they are amazing. They have all the modern remote apps like Slack, Zoom, and everything. I struggled. When I first saw Slack, my brain couldn’t compute. Where do I begin? Oh, my gosh. By the time I was done, I was doing all kinds of things on it. But I adapted, I learned. And because I had the ability, which everyone else does, actually, we’re all creative, now it’s like second nature to me. The very thing that I thought I could never learn, it became second nature to me. At first, it felt like alien language. Like, what is this Slack business? And it’s nothing to me now. But I didn’t know. I didn’t tell myself, I’ll never be able I wanted to do it. There were moments, yes, I wobble. There were wobbling moments, but I was like, no, I can do this. I know technology.
Caroline: Yeah, you just have to build up layer by layer.
Sara: Build it up. You have to. We can because we have to remember, we built this. This technology that we all enjoy, we built it. Another human being built it, and built with us in mind so that we can use it. And so therefore, don’t limit yourself by saying, I’m not creative or I can’t do this. You can’t. Just push through the hurdle, and you’ll come to the other side as a winner.
Caroline: Oh, my gosh. That’s such good advice. I’m reflecting on all of this so much. I think we could probably speak for hours and hours.
Sara: Forever. Of course we can.
Caroline: So at this point in the conversation, I usually like to take a little peek behind the scenes and find out a bit more about how you create your kind space. I always find this really fascinating because especially if it’s someone who’s really creating Are there things that you gravitate towards to support your well-being or actually the opposite of what you do in your day job? Or is it… Tell us, how do you create your space?
Sara: So I was telling you, Caroline, earlier that my mind never shuts up. It is constantly thinking, thinking, coming up with a million ideas. If you see my computer, my notes, folders, there are so many. It’s insane. My brain doesn’t stop. So for me, my kind space would be to stop and step away and silence my nonstop brain. And so what I would do typically, maybe go for my gin and tonic with friends out, we’re unwind, we’ll laugh and be silly, not talk about serious things. Just be like, be present. I would go for a hair salon trip and get my hair done because I like feeling glamorous and pretty. Enhance my feminine nature, I suppose just feed that a bit more. Maybe buy a bunch of flowers for myself because I love flowers.
Caroline: Oh, that’s a lovely idea.
Sara: Yes, I do that. And of course, spending quality time with my daughter who is not a tween, as you know, she means how they are. They know better than you. They are tweens, but they’re going on 20.
Caroline: They’re like, Are we going to Superdrug? It’s all my daughter wants to do.
Sara: Oh, my daughter is always Hobbycraft because she’s forever-
Caroline: Oh, that also. Yes. Those are the top two.
Sara: I need this… It’s always I need this mommy. It’s so important. And I was like, Yeah, well, I’m so sorry we’re not getting that. But for me, it’s a people connection and stepping away and just really shutting my brain down from thinking of the millions of ideas that I need to bring to life.
Caroline: A change of pace as well.
Sara: A hundred %.
Caroline: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.
Sara: Just do what brings you joy and brings laughter and always try to have human connection. I think that for me is where I get my energy. The source of joy is mingling with other people.
Caroline: Yeah, your close family and friends.
Sara: Family. Well, yeah, friends, definitely. I don’t have family here. It’s just myself and my daughter. But yeah, friends in my community that I’m part of.
Caroline: Oh, thank you.
Sara: Thank you so much for having me, Caroline. I really appreciate it.
Caroline: So before we go, we also wanted to share our exciting collaborations, didn’t we? So Sarah and I are going to be hosting a really special event in the run up to Mother’s Day. So it’s going to be a really beautiful celebration of that mother-daughter relationship. And I guess giving people an opportunity to celebrate their mothers, whether they’re still with them or not. Maybe they’re wanting to recollect fond memories or however it is that you want to use the space, the studio will be here. And we’re welcoming beautiful people into the space to use creative writing as a way to express those feelings and emotions, and maybe it will be something that people get a taster for it, and then they want to come back as well.
Sara: Yes, 100 %. Yeah, it’s going to be a very dynamic experience. No story is off limits. You can… whatever you’re comfortable with, we’re going to facilitate that space, private space for you to come and express and open up and talk about it or whatever way you want to express in writing a letter. For me, my relationship with my mum Mum was not great. Unfortunately, she had me very young, and she died in a very violent car crash. So that’s a memory.
Caroline: I’m so sorry.
Sara: Oh, no, it’s fine. That was a long, long time ago. And so that’s part of… And the idea just came because I know how kind you are, and then you have a business that’s called Kind Space, which is very close to what similar to what I work on. And it just idea just popped in like, Oh, let me tell Caroline, maybe she’d be interested in doing a collaborative workshop.
Caroline: Yeah.
Sara: And so, yeah, even if it’s one that holds negative feelings, please don’t feel that you can’t come and express, and open up and find some healing space with all of us. So I’m not going to come here and gush about an amazing mum because that was not my complete experience. And she died when I was very young anyway, so I didn’t have a lot of experience with a mum. I was 15. So I would like to explore that with whoever decides to come and join our workshop for Mother’s Day. Well, it will be in celebration of Mother’s Day. It won’t be on Mother’s Day, I believe you’re away.
Caroline: Yes. So 22nd of March, we’ll put a link in the show notes so that people can take a look and see if they want to join us. I would love for them to come and experience the space because I know when I came away from the workshop, I felt lighter. I felt like I was able to open up about things that genuinely I was really struggling with. So I lost my dog just at Christmas time, and she was really ill when I came in to do the workshop. And I think it stirred up a lot of memories for me because I got the dog for my mum. And then when my mum passed away, the dog was almost like the last connection with her.
Sara: Yes, of course, course.
Caroline: Maybe that’s a weird way to see it, but honestly, my dog was like my whole life. My whole routine was built around looking after her because she was everything to me. They’re so beautiful because you can tell them stuff. You can talk to them, and they’ll just listen. I feel like having someone in your life like that is really important. I hope that people can come and they can share what’s important to them, whether it’s tougher feelings or more emotional feelings. Maybe it’s lighter, more fun as well. We can celebrate maybe the good times as well. But yeah.
Sara: It’s an ideal one with mum and daughter as well. So a daughter can bring their mum and write a beautiful love letter for their mum and read it out to her. So as an affirmation. We will explore all kinds of ways of doing that. I’m really looking forward to it. Can’t wait. So excited.
Caroline: I know. I can’t wait. Thank you so much. So I also need make sure that people know where to find you online. So you’re on Instagram, I know.
Sara: I certainly am.
Caroline: Is that the best place for people to find you?
Sara: Yes, you can find me on Instagram. I have an artist page. I have a Baravere Studio page. I have way too many Instagram pages, unfortunately, because I have way too many projects. But yes, you can find me there. You can find me on LinkedIn. I have a website. So unfortunately, I’m everywhere, and that’s how people can sometimes stalk me, which has happened, by the way, and emailing me. But yeah, I’m available everywhere. And we will be releasing the poster for the event. So there will be a lot more information there as well.
Caroline: Yes. Yeah. Well, thank you so much.
Sara: Thank you so much for having me.
Caroline: You have been such a beautiful guest.
Caroline: It’s so interesting the linkage between technology and creativity. I think it is one of the things that I love most about what I do now. But like most things in life there does need to be a balance, and I hope that what comes across in our conversation is that technology should support rather than replace creative processes and that human touch.
I think the other thing that struck with me from our conversation is how important it is to have an outlet for self-expression, whether that’s something like journaling or a creative hobby like painting, or music.
So if you wanna join the conversation, you wanna get in touch and let me know your thoughts about this episode, I would love to hear from you. Also if you could give this episode a like and share on social media that would also be really helpful.
And a final thing, if you’re in the Aberdeen, it would be so wonderful to see you at our Mother’s Day event that we’re planning on the 22nd of March. So make sure to check out the show notes. And I’m also gonna pop a link to the European Chatbot and Conversational AI summit, just in case you’re in Edinburgh that week as well.
Disclaimer:
The information on this podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. You should seek the advice of an appropriately qualified healthcare professional before making decisions about your own circumstances. You should not disregard, or delay seeking professional medical advice because of any information contained on this podcast.
Unless specifically mentioned on the podcast, Create Your Kindspace and Caroline Laurenson do not formally endorse or have any affiliation with any product or service mentioned in the podcast. The opinions and content provided and/or shared by any third-party guests, any third-party material or third-party website referenced in this podcast does not necessarily reflect the opinions or policies of Create Your Kindspace and Caroline Laurenson.
