Losing a loved one is never easy. My guest today turned her grief, after losing her brother to suicide, into a profound personal mission. Devoting her career to suicide prevention and mental health training and campaigning for more support in these areas, particularly for those most vulnerable in our society.
In this emotional yet hopeful discussion, Holly shares her own journey, the misconceptions that fuel stigma, and the simple steps we can take to look out for those around us. Keep listening to find out how we can create the kind of spaces, where speaking up saves lives.
Timestamps:
00:03:08 Holly’s Personal Journey to Suicide Prevention Work
00:07:55 Creating Supportive Communities and Talking About Suicide
00:13:14 A Baton of Hope – Raising Awareness
00:21:52 Money Worries and Mental Health
00:28:47 Some of the Myths Around Suicide and How to Spot the Signs
00:36:04 Support in Schools and for Young People
00:38:03 Journaling for Mental Health
00:43:38 The Challenges and Rewards of Running a Business
00:48:04 What’s Coming Up for Blooming Mind?
00:49:48 Self-Care and Working Through Trauma
00:53:42 Links to Connect with Holly and Support Resources
Links:
Website: Blooming Mind – Check out Holly’s training for mental health and suicide first aid.
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/BloomingmindUK/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bloomingminduk
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hollyclarkbloomingmind/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@bloomingminduk
Sunrise Scribbler – Holly’s journal to help you on your journey to better mental health.
Samaritans – Available 24/7. Reach out at 116, 123. They’re there for everyone, not just those in a crisis.
Shout – A discreet text service for those times when you might not want to vocalise your feelings. Simply text to 25852, and a trained professional will offer their support.
Hub of Hope – This comprehensive tool can be accessed either via an app or on your desktop at hubofhope.co.uk. Just input your postcode, and discover the local support services available near you, catering to a wide range of needs.
A Local Information Service for Scotland ALISS – Helping you to find services, groups and activities for health and wellbeing across Scotland. Works on your desktop at aliss.org or your Alexa smart speaker, just say “Alexa, enable My Scottish Community” to get started.
For money advice check out:
Money and Pensions Service – talk money week
Martin Lewis’ Money Saving Expert website – a literal goldmine of advice for all things money
Money and Mental Health Policy Institute – Also headed up by Martin, this is where you can get involved in vital research that will help to ensure that people with financial worries are properly supported.
Baton for Hope – This baton relay tours around the country, get involved and raise awareness about suicide.
Transcript:
Caroline: Welcome, Holly. Welcome to the podcast. Now, before I begin, I do want to let our listeners know that we’re going to be discussing some sensitive topics around mental health and suicide, in particular. I’m saying this now because it’s at this point, I always ask my guests to explain a bit about their background and how they’ve got to where they are and the purpose and the passion behind what they do and Holly’s story is a very powerful one and it very much resonates with me.
I was so delighted that Holly agreed to come on the show because it is such an important issue and I really hope that it can help a lot of people. Because perhaps you’re going through something similar and maybe listening to this, it will give you some comfort. It might give you some insight into mental health and how it affects people and their families. Maybe what you can do to support people with their mental health and maybe spot some of the signs. Holly and I, we did have a pre-chat to talk about what we’d be discussing. We will do our best to keep it open and honest.
I’m expecting some tears maybe and points where it gets emotional. Perhaps it wasn’t my best plan to record this as a video, but we will do our best and I will make sure we’ll pop links at the end so that if there is anyone who’s needing some support, then you’ve got some links and obviously Holly is here to help us as well. Thank you so much for agreeing to be on the show.
Holly: You’re so welcome.
Caroline: To kick us off, please do share your story and your background and what led you to start your business, Blooming Mind.
Holly: Thank you. And thanks so much for having me on. It’s always a pleasure to talk to you, my lovely lady, and also to share what it is that I do and why I do it. And you’re right, there is a message behind it. And I suppose really going back to how everything started with me, it does come from a pace of pain. However, there’s a huge amount of positivity that can come just from starting the conversation about mental health. So thank you for giving me this platform to be able to hopefully spread some positivity around the topic. And I always start every delivery that I do by saying that it’s really good to talk about suicide and mental health, and it’s something that we don’t talk about enough. And I think like stigma, there’s so much stigma surrounding mental health and suicide. Actually, stigma grows in shadows, doesn’t it? And in darkness. And actually, by shining a light, we’re making it better just by having a conversation. So thank you. But yes, I have got some tissues at the ready just in case. You never know. But maybe not.
Caroline: I know, I know.
Holly: So if we go back to me just starting university, and this is 20 years ago this year, I set off ready to study psychology with the view to becoming a clinical psychologist. That was where I wanted my path to go. And sadly, a couple of months into my starting university, my brother took his life. And it was a massive shock, obviously, to everybody. At the time, we didn’t think there was any signs and something that stuck with me for a long time, really. How did we not notice that he was feeling that way? So that happened and then I ran as far away from mental health as you can possibly run. I actually became a maths teacher. So that, you know.
Caroline: Yes, cos I know your backgrounds in teaching.
Holly: Yeah, that’s it. I thought what’s as far away from feelings and mental health and emotions as you can possibly go? And teaching teenagers is not that… Definitely not. So I did that for ten years and loved it. Still very much involved in education, but with a different slant now. I always think that what you’re meant to do finds you.
Caroline: That is so true.
Holly: It’s true, isn’t it? You can try and hide, but actually, it does come back. There was something itching in me to get back involved with mental health. I’d done a few charity things and a bit of a fundraiser and events and stuff like that to dip my toe in. But then the opportunity arose. I got invited to attend a mental health first aid course, and I attended the course and it was incredible. And I thought, do you know what? This is how I can use my skill set of having that understanding and empathy and a bit of lived experience around mental health alongside my teaching skills to bring the two together. So that is how I started delivering education around mental health and suicide. And I deliver lots of different things now, but in the main, suicide first aid and mental health first aid.
And both of these products very much, just like, you don’t need to have any beginning knowledge. It’s great. People can come wherever they are and just learn some skills of how to recognise and how to respond to someone who might be in distress. So that’s the start.
Caroline: Yeah, that’s amazing, Such a powerful story and so beautiful that you’re able to do something positive out of something that is a painful and traumatic experience. I know more than anyone how difficult a topic it is to talk about in our own family so my husband, Thomas, his brother, we lost him to suicide. It was over 12 years ago. I remember our oldest, who’s 15, he was only a toddler. I think like you were saying, we didn’t know, we didn’t realise how much he was suffering, and it was such a huge shock. Even today, we feel the impact from that. Your lives are never the same again. I think we are getting better as a society talking about difficult life experiences and mental health, but suicide really is rarely talked about.
Holly: It’s so true.
Caroline: Maybe it is because it literally is the most vulnerable of things to experience. I can’t begin to imagine how painful that would be for someone to go through.
Holly: I think when you consider that stigma around mental health, isn’t it? And suicide in particular. There’s so many myths and so many misconceptions and I think it’s difficult to talk about as someone bereaved by suicide, but you imagine what that’s like to be living with those thoughts of suicide. It’s so hard for that person to reach out for support because you don’t know how people are going to respond. If we, who have quite shared experiences and very… I always hate to say the word knowledgeable because I always say there’s so much more that we still need to know. But us that perhaps are a little bit more knowledgeable than that of maybe the general population still find it difficult to talk about it, then how do does everyone else start that conversation? And I think that is why we really must have… We must create a community and the world as a whole is able to reach in and support people rather than expecting them to reach out, if that makes sense.
Caroline: Yeah, and having a place where you can share experiences because obviously everyone’s experience is different, but you can find comfort and a feeling of not being alone when you find people in common. I guess I think about it in terms of… In our lives, we’ve experienced other traumatic things. When we lost our first pregnancy, I remember at the time feeling so alone. But then when you tell people, you actually realise that it affects so many people and people that I was like, I had no idea. How did I not know that you had gone through this?
Holly: Yeah, so true.
Caroline: I think maybe there’s something in that and building a space that’s safe for people to share how they feel.
Holly: Yeah, yeah. And not being afraid for the messy stuff that follows. It’s okay. I think that’s it. We’re so terrified of upsetting people or making things worse. And actually, the wrong thing to do is say nothing. You can put your foot in it and you can say the wrong thing and you can maybe upset somebody. But actually, you can apologise for that. And if it’s coming from a good place, I used to call it helpful nosiness, but someone told me that I should call it compassionate curiosity, and that sounds so much better.
Caroline: Oh, I like that.
Holly: But I think helpful nosiness.If you’re willing to get involved and ask people how they’re doing and aren’t too worried about what happens when you do unpick that stitch and some emotions might spill out. That’s absolutely fine because we are messy and we are full of emotions and different experiences, aren’t we? And we shouldn’t be afraid to learn from each other, I suppose.
Caroline: I’m so glad you covered that because that was one of the top things I wanted to ask you about, because even for me, how do you talk to someone about these sorts of issues and have someone you know that’s lost a loved one? How do you best support them? It’s so difficult.
Holly: And it is. I always think as well, it’s almost becomes like the elephant in the room, doesn’t it? Where I remember when my brother died, I was 19, going out partying all the time. I’d go to places where I’d always go out with my friends and everybody would know, but nobody would come and speak to me about it, and it would almost feel like there would be the circle around me where people were too scared to come in because they didn’t know how I was going to react. And it was difficult. And for a long time, really, it was. I had my circular friends who were just incredible, and I don’t know where I’d be without them. But actually, from those acquaintances slash friends, they just didn’t know what to say. And so what happens when people don’t know what to do? There becomes a separation, doesn’t it? And there becomes isolation. And my top tip to anybody would be just to say, I don’t know what to say, but I just wanted to let you know that I’m thinking of you. And if you do want to talk to me, I’m more than happy to do that. And that to me was really useful when people did say that. Are you okay? What does that mean? Are you okay? Are you wanting to know? No, I’m not, actually. Or do you just want me to say, Yeah, fine, and walk on… Asking with intent, ask with intent that you want to know how that person is. Yeah, and be prepared to ask again.
Caroline: Fantastic, thanks. Fantastic advice. Thank you. So I wanted to find out a bit more about the work that you do. I know you’ve been recognised nationally for raising awareness of suicide, and earlier in the year you did the Baton of Hope relay. So this is probably something that people haven’t heard about before, but I think it’s a fantastic initiative. So perhaps we could share a bit more about the event and the day and how was that for you?
Holly: Yes. Do you know what? It was incredible. So the Baton of Hope is the world’s, actually, the world’s biggest suicide prevention and awareness raising initiative, and the country’s biggest suicide prevention awareness campaign that we’ve ever seen. And it involved a baton that was specially created travelling the lengths of the country. And you could apply to be a baton bearer. And the kind of people who were applying to be baton bearers were either people that had lived experience of themselves attempting or thinking about suicide, or many, many loved ones who had lost someone to suicide, as well as those who are campaigning for change. And there were celebrities and politicians and all manner of people that when I touched it, I don’t think I ever wanted to wash my hands again when I thought of all the amazing people that had held this baton before me. I’m not sure whether that would have been so good at the start of COVID, actually. So I did use my hand gel.
But it was incredible. And the day itself I applied and then I found out I’ve been successful. And it’s really interesting because my mum and dad, they have really struggled in talking about my brother. It’s something as a family we don’t really discuss. It is the elephant in the room and it has been probably really until I started doing what I do now. We just don’t discuss Colin, and it’s like he’s there and his picture’s in the corner of the room. But if one of us starts to talk about it, normally my mum will get a bit upset. So we just skirt round the issue. But a week before I was due to go, I was going to Manchester and it was actually my little girl’s first birthday was the same day that I was carrying the baton. So, what a celebration for you Lucy. And the week before my husband tore his hamstring, running the dad’s race on the sports day. Very competitive man.
Caroline: That should be banned, honestly. Parents racing at the children’s sports day, should be banned. It’s so dangerous.
Holly: It really…Well, there was two injuries on that day, and one man, bless him, did a few rolls on the way past you know, it was a carnage, brutal. So literally, it was a couple of days before that happened and my husband wasn’t going to be able to come with me. And I didn’t know how I was going to do it because I had Lucy with me. And how was I going to carry the baton and push the pram and all the rest of it? But I desperately wanted to go. So in the end, my mum said, Would you like me to come with you? And I just really know just how much of a big deal that was for her. So she came with me and it was really interesting. It was beautiful to see there was just so much hugging everybody. Everyone was wearing these T-shirts, these Baton of Hope T-shirts to let people know who was being a Baton bearer. And it was just a real collective like sharing of grief, but also a positivity that look what we’re doing. We’re doing something positive in the face of stuff that’s really awful.
But there was a little bit of a funny story that happened because you had to queue up to get ready to take your turn, and there was like a figure of eight through Manchester City Centre that we were walking and you’d get to do your figure of eight and everybody was stood around and just smiling at you really and will-ing you on and lots of hugging. And I said to my mum, Will you take a picture of me with the baton? And my mum had spent the whole day just at the back, not wanting to make eye contact with people, wanting to keep herself, protect herself a little bit because she was feeling a little bit uncomfortable. And then I queued up and then as I got hold of the bat on, I turned around to find my mum to take a picture and she’d gone with this group of people.
She was crying and this woman was crying and they were just laughing and crying and hugging each other and that was it. And it was beautiful because for the first time, really, in such a long time, my mom had shared her part of the story, and it was it was beautiful. So I did, so I didn’t think I was going to get a picture and I did my walk. But luckily, another beautiful girl I know, Jessie Gallier from the Martin Gallier Project is a massive suicide prevention service local to me who lost her father to suicide. She was there. I had no idea she was there. We lived around the corner and she was like, Holly. So I said, Oh, goodness me. So she took a picture. So the picture I’ve got… I’ve got the biggest smile on my face because I just wasn’t expecting the joy and the positivity around such a deeply moving moment. It really was incredible. I’m happy that.
Caroline: How lovely that your mum got to experience that too!
Holly: So special. So it was a really special moment. It was. Yeah, it was. It was good. I think she felt better for doing it, even though we’ve not spoken about it since, surprisingly. Everybody does things at their own journey, don’t they get at their own pace? And I think that’s a real good message, actually, to send, isn’t it? It’s like don’t compare your journey to someone else’s, you know?
Caroline: No, and your time… They say time heals, but it doesn’t. It may be softens, but it doesn’t.
Holly: No, that’s it. And yeah, that’s it. Sometimes I see, I am just in awe of people who go through something so traumatic, and then a few months later or a year later, they are changing the world with the campaign that they’ve started. And it took me 15 years to be able to stand up and talk about my brother. 15 years, and so I just think don’t compare yourself to other people. If you are feeling like, When will this cloud lift? It will. But don’t worry if it’s taking its time. It’s all part of the journey. And grief is like a cycle, isn’t it? You feel all right for a bit.
Caroline: Yes, sometimes the tiniest things can bring back memories and then you’re right back.
Holly: Absolutely. It really is. So yeah, but it was incredible. So thank you for asking about that because the Baton of Hope.
Caroline: It’s wonderful. I think it’s just such a wonderful symbol and the baton itself looks so beautiful. It reminded me of the one for the Olympics.
Holly: Yes. Yeah. As big and as grand as that. That’s how it was. It really was. It was so heavy.
Caroline: Was it heavy?
Holly: Yeah, I think it was, I can’t remember exactly what it was, but maybe five kilograms. There is an actual amount. It’s on their website and you can go and have a look what it was I was surprised at just how weighty and just it just felt so solid. It was such a beautiful representation of what it was trying to do because it just felt so important.
Caroline: I really hope it’s a campaign that grows and they’re able to have these events in more places across the country because I think it’s such a wonderful thing to do.
Holly: Absolutely. Definitely.
Caroline: Hopefully you can get involved again.
Holly: I know. I know. That’s it. Yeah. Bring the whole family. Maybe the husband will make it next time. Yeah. No more running for you. Definitely not. So, yes, that’s been an amazing thing that I did over the summer. And there’s been so many amazing opportunities that have been coming my way with regards to suicide prevention and mental health as a whole. And it’s really exciting to be part of the positive change, if you like. And you’re right, you mentioned earlier about the fact that things are better now than what they were like 12 to 20 years ago. And you’re so right. I think, you must have found it the same, when your brother-in-law died and when my brother died. We just didn’t talk about mental health that much. I didn’t even really know anyone that had taken my life before. I’d never heard of it. And it’s only once you get plunged into that, that you realise that it is actually really, really common. And the rates of suicide are really quite high. Six and a half thousand.
Caroline: That was the other thing I was going to ask you about. Because I guess with underlying issues around cost of living crisis.
Holly: Absolutely.
Caroline: After effects from the pandemic, a lot of people are struggling with health challenges and those things take their toll and money worries, honestly, are one of the biggest causes of mental health.
Holly: Absolutely. They say money can’t buy you happiness, but lack of money to be able to meet your basic needs is absolutely the cause of a lot of misery, isn’t it? And it’s been really interesting to watch how the statistics are going around suicide rates. And I keep my eye… I always say if anyone ever wants to keep up to date with where to find the most user-friendly and reliable statistics around suicide, it’s the Samaritans annual report. So they report… They release a report every year that breaks it down by area, age, gender, so you get a bit of an overview. And we’re always massively behind when it comes to suicide statistics because it takes such a long time to make that decision. You know, it’s hard to decide if something is a suicide or not. Not in every case, but in lots of cases it is. The coroner has got to make a decision on the balance of probability. Did that person do a behaviour with the intention of dying? And it’s that intention that’s really key and it’s quite hard to prove intention. So you can imagine it takes time for the coroner to make that decision and the knock on effect of Covid has meant that there is a backlog still. So we are still working on 2020, 2021 statistics.
Caroline: Really?
Holly: Yeah. And there’s been, there are more up to date statistics, but they’re not verified. We still know there’s more to be added because of the backlog from coroner support. So it’s really hard.
Caroline: I know we talked about that side of things, and here’s a question for you. So I know there’s always comparison between different areas and different countries and things. So could there then be almost inconsistencies where you’re not making comparable comparisons because of the assessments and the way that they’re done?
Holly: Yeah, absolutely. I had a really interesting meeting with an incredible guy from Public Health in Sefton by me, and he was saying around… A big project that I’m working on at the minute is around LGBT plus suicide in the city. So around Liverpool City region, we’re really trying to focus. There’s been a really quite high number of suicides within the LGBT population. And we were chatting about that because I was saying around the statistics and he was saying that there’s so many gaps in the statistics around demographics because sometimes the coroner doesn’t know and won’t tick the right boxes as to what that person identifies as or what it is they do as their job. Do they have any past involvement with mental health services? There isn’t this in-depth look at every person because there just isn’t the time to do it.
Caroline: And even like we were saying, the financial background.
Holly: Yeah, that’s it. We wouldn’t know. We know that the financial crisis is having an impact. And the reason why we know it is because the amount of people who are accessing help lines and the amount of people who are reporting that through the Samaritans or through the Shout line or there’s many incredible help lines of which we’ll definitely share with you, which will be useful for everyone listening to know about. What they are reporting more that these are the themes that are coming through from people in crisis, feeling desperate. And there’s work to be done there, isn’t there? We shouldn’t be living in the modern country that we are living in, with one of the richest countries in the world, but yet this polarised view of the richest are getting richer. Actually, so many people now it’s people that maybe 20, 30 years ago wouldn’t have felt that financial pinch quite so much. It’s impacting everybody. Your weekly food shop is like twice as much, isn’t it?
Caroline: I know, it’s stressful. I’ve got my house insurance renewal and my car insurance renewal and I was looking at the quotes and I was like, Oh, my goodness.
Holly: Yeah, it’s not just going up a little bit, is it? No, that’s it. I know I was very lucky, actually, that I fixed my mortgage about literally three months before everything crashed. So I’m still on a 1.9 % mortgage.
Caroline: Lucky you.
Holly: I know. I put it due up in February and I’m just dreading it. I don’t know what we’re going to do.
Caroline: Our mortgage has just gone up. We did manage to lock in another deal, but obviously it wasn’t as good as what we were on before and it’s 400 pounds a month more.
Holly: Right.
Caroline: Which is a lot of money.
Holly: And you do think you build your life around your salary, don’t you? You know what you’ve got each month and you spend up to that point. I know, in an ideal world, we should also have a pot of savings, but I don’t. I think it’s great if you can or do that, and I wish it was a bit more sensible with money, but most people don’t have those massive reserves. And so when something like that changes so drastically, to have your gas and energy prices and your mortgage or rent prices and, and, and.. all at once, who has an extra like £700 just coming in that they’re not already allocating to something else? It’s just not… It just doesn’t make sense. It’s just not fair, really, is it? You know.
Caroline: No, it isn’t. We’re not going to be able to fix that in this podcast, but hopefully we can signpost people to some places where they can go to support. Actually, I think we’ll do that as well in terms of the financial side of things.
Holly: Yeah, definitely.
Caroline: And hopefully, encourage people that if they are feeling stressed and under pressure with bills and things, there are places to go.
Holly: Yeah, there are places to go. There are some amazing debt management charities out there. And there’s also some rogue traders as well. So it’s really useful to know whether the not-for-profit organisations that are running that are there to support you with managing your finances because they can be incredible. I’ve sign posted many, many people to places and it’s been really successful. So there is help out there. And you’re not alone, really, isn’t it? Is the message.
Caroline: Yeah. So moving on, I was going to ask you a bit more about the training that you do. There is a lot more focus on mental health in the workplace now, even more so since the pandemic and people, their work lives changing so significantly. I think people, they are more open to talking about things. There’s obviously a lot around mental health first aid training and having trained first aiders in workplaces, but someone listening, they might not have heard about suicide awareness training and how maybe that differs and why you might consider including that in the training programmes that you’re offering for your staff.
Holly: Yeah, absolutely. So suicide first aid training is precisely that, training people of how to recognise and respond in a crisis. I think probably the best way to let people know about it is to tell people what the three core beliefs that underpin the programme are, because it makes everything else make sense. And three core beliefs, number one, is that people thinking about suicide don’t actually want to die. They just don’t want to live in the pain that they’re in, or they can’t live in the pain that they’re in. So therefore, most people thinking about suicide do let other people know. And that might be consciously, or it could be unconsciously by things that we might see them doing or hear them saying or learn that’s happened to them. But most people do let people know. And so core belief number three is if we know what to look for and we know what to do, suicide has to be one of the most preventable deaths. And that underpins the whole programme of really getting to grips with what is suicide? How can we understand how someone can go from no thoughts of suicide to thoughts of suicide?
What that means when they’re in that place of thinking about suicide, what signs might people show? And spoiler alert, change is what you’re looking for here. It doesn’t matter if you’re right, doesn’t matter if you ask someone if they’re thinking about suicide and they’re not. But if you recognise a change in somebody, just explore that, pick at it. You don’t seem yourself. I’ve noticed there’s been a change in your behaviour. I’ve noticed you’re withdrawing from social events, or I’ve noticed you’ve been absent from work a lot lately and that’s not like you, etc, or whatever that change might be, just let that person know what you’ve seen and ask them. Are you thinking about suicide? And it is always safe to ask about suicide. You’re never going to ask the wrong person. And I’ll tell you a story actually that happened to me that was proof of that. It was when I was teaching, I’ve not long done my course, done my instructor training, and I was really keen to spot these signs. I was going around, was everybody looking okay? Who can I ask if they’re not all right? And there was a guy in my class, and I always call him Callum, that’s not his real name, but it’s Callum to me now.
And Callum had changed. He wasn’t himself. He was this lovable rogue that used to give a little bit of back chat every now and again. Didn’t do his homework, definitely. A bit of a cheeky-chaffy. But he changed. He was actually sitting at the front of the room. He’d done his homework. He was just so out of character. And I was concerned about him. So I made the decision to ask him. And in my head, I thought, I’m concerned about him here. And I don’t know if the conversation is going to go to ask about suicide, but I’m prepared in case it does. So I asked him to help me pack away and just questioned him a little bit. You don’t see yourself at the minute, Callum. Is everything all right? And he said, fine, yeah, no, it’s all right. I just got a vibe he wasn’t anyway. And then it turned out that there was a few issues going on at home. And you know, things weren’t great for Callum at that time. So I asked him and I said, Callum, and this is a 14-year-old boy here, I said, Callum, sometimes when people are telling me that they’ve got such a lot going on and they’re not feeling themselves and they’re feeling quite desperate, which was one of the things that he said to me that was like a real flag for me, it could mean that they were thinking about suicide.
Are you thinking about suicide? And he just laughed at me. It was like such an unexpected reaction. He said, What? Are you joking? No, I’m not. And I was a bit taken aback and I just said, Oh, okay. Are you sure? I’m just a little bit concerned. He said, No, things aren’t great at the minute, but not about bad Miss. No. And that was it, off he toddled. And I followed it through and went to speak to his head a year and just told him the conversation that we’d had, and they followed it through. And Callum was fine, he wasn’t thinking about suicide. And it got me really reflecting. Did I come on a bit too strong there? When I ask the question before probing a little bit more? Had I asked the wrong person? And I just reflected and that was that. And then a few weeks go by and I was just sat marking in my room at the end of the day. And this guy who I don’t know, I’ve never taught this chap, one of Callum’s friends just knocked on my door and he said to me, Can I speak to you, please, Miss?
And I said, Yeah, of course. So he came in and he said to me a couple of weeks ago, you spoke to Callum, and that’s how I feel. And I said, Are you telling me you’re thinking of suicide? And he said, Yeah. So word had got round that I was someone who was safe.
Caroline: You were safe space, oh my gosh. I’m getting goosebumps from that. Yeah. Oh my gosh.
Holly: So yeah, that to me was just evidence that you can’t ask the wrong person. You’re just creating this environment where people know that you’re safe to talk to. You’re absolutely creating your kind space, really, isn’t it? But your safe space.
Caroline: Yeah
Holly: Absolutely. Yeah, it was a really, really great moment. And as a result of me asking the wrong person, actually, Callum’s friends, I’m quite confident to say that I probably saved his life that day. He has definitely wanted to end his life, and he didn’t by the end of our conversation. And he is now like 25, no 23 and thriving. He’s doing really, really well. He’s one that I always keep a little eye on just to make sure that they’re doing good, and they are, you know? Which I suppose is another myth, isn’t it? That once someone’s thinking about suicide, they’re always going to think about suicide, and the reality is no. Most people can and do recover.
Caroline: Given support and able to address any underlying issues.
Holly: Absolutely.
Caroline: Yeah, definitely. I think it also shows how powerful training is, with young people, then having access to that at a really early stage so that they understand that these feelings, they’re not forever. They probably start to feel very isolated and alone. So having access to that support, even for teachers, that’s a very important role that they hold, with building trust with the young people and the young people feeling like they can go to someone to tell them how they fell.
Holly: Definitely. There’s a lot of work to be done. I still go into schools a lot and teachers are really, really stressed, stretched, leaving the profession in droves, and it seems like every time there is another gap that we see or need that we need to fill, it’s like, Oh, teachers, that’s education. That’s education. And they have such a privileged position, really, to be able to get those relationships with children. However, they need more resources to be able to do that, isn’t it? There needs to be proper funding for mental health support within schools rather than it just being a bolt on. If in doubt, the form teacher can just do it as well as the myriad of other things they’ve got to get through in that 15 minutes that they get to see those students in the morning. Our teachers need more support. Yeah, definitely. I know. Yeah. So that’s Suicide, First Aid. It’s a great course.
Caroline: Yeah soI think that’s a wonderful thing for people to consider because I think giving people the confidence to have these sorts of conversations is really where we can make a difference.
Holly: Absolutely.
Caroline: I wanted to also talk a bit about your journal. I know in Kindspace, we like to share a lot of different tools and ideas to improve people’s wellbeing. We do have a little journaling feature which has got prompts, but we don’t have a book to go along with it. I was really excited when I saw that you had launched your book. So it’s called The Sunrise Scribbler, Your Five Minute Morning Manifesto. And maybe you could talk to us a bit about that, about the journal, about what led you to create it, and any tips that you’ve got for people who want to get started journaling.
Holly: Yeah, well, do you know what? The Sunrise scribbler was actually created at two o’clock in the morning. That was when it… It was as a result of when I was pregnant, actually, a couple of years ago, and I couldn’t sleep. I’d go to sleep fine, and then I’d wake up and I just couldn’t sleep and I was sat there and then I started just jotting down what was going on in my mind and started just roughly journaling just on a piece of A4 paper from the printer, kind of thing. I started writing down my thoughts, and it actually helped me to get back to sleep. It was almost like, okay, this thought is going round and round, but if I just take it out and put it on this paper, I can stop it rattling around and this head of mine and just go back to sleep. So that’s how it started. And then I thought there’s something… As I was writing it, I was asking myself different prompts. And my background is in psychology, and a big part of that is around positive psychology. Our brains are designed to pick up on negative information. The negativity bias is there, isn’t it?
And it goes right the way back to caveman times, doesn’t it? Kind of surveying the horizon and looking out for threats. And we have to overcome that. We have to train our brain to think more positively, through mindfulness, through journaling, through positive affirmations, through all of these incredible techniques that have scientifically shown through MRI scans and all sorts that there is a benefit and they do work. And so I thought I was asking myself these, and then I thought actually it could help quite a lot of people with getting this down on paper. So I created The Sunrise Scribbler then, and that was how it started, just an idea at 2:00 in the morning and I wrote it down and it didn’t have that name. I can’t remember what name it had then, but it was something really cheesy. It developed from something different to the Sunrise Scribbler. And I thought that it needed to be this morning manifesto of just starting your day right. And it doesn’t have to be done in the morning. It can be done whenever you’ve got time, but it really just gives people a bit of space to just think about, what are we grateful for?
What do we want to achieve that day, the next day? And then also every single day there is a different positive psychology prompt that really gets them to think, what piece of advice would you give you 10-year-old self? List ten people who, or list three people that uplift you, that you’re grateful to having in your life and really just finding the little pockets of positivity to just give you a little boost as you go through.
Caroline: Yeah, oh wonderful.
Holly: So that’s a Sunrise Scribbler, and it’s been amazing. I’m not a natural author. English was never my favourite subject in school.
Caroline: No, me neither. See I’m a maths person too.
Holly: Yeah, me too.Yeah, that’s it. So it is. Yeah, it’s been a challenge. I had all the psychology ideas there, but getting it into a user-friendly format has been hours and days and weeks and months of just formatting, reformatting, trying different things. I’m reading a book at the minute, actually, and one of the quotes in it is that someone goes to someone in a bar and says, Oh, I hear you’re writing a book. I’m an author. And he says, Oh, you mean you’re not writing a book too? And I thought that maybe laughs because it’s so much stood there like, Right, what next? Where do we go from here? But it’s been a really interesting process to do that. It’s been interesting.
Caroline: Congratulations.
Holly: Thank you.
Caroline: Because I think that a lot of people have the aspiration and the idea, and then it’s very difficult to see it through, so congratulations. Well, thank you. We’ll pop a link to it so that people can check it out and get a copy if they would like to try journaling.
Holly: Yes. There we go.
Caroline: We’ll maybe move on to talking… Well, telling people, sharing with people, how we actually met. You obviously wear a lot of hats in your business, and it is very serendipitous. That’s actually one of my favourite words. We met through a social media training course. With the amazing Fin Wycherley.
Holly: Yes.
Caroline: If anyone also has to manage social media, Fin Wycherley is a genius.
Holly: Oh, she really is.
Caroline: Check out her support as well. But yeah, we met last year at the tail end of last year.
Holly: It was amazing.
Caroline: It just was so amazing to find out that we had so many things in common. It’s just been wonderful to get to spend this time with you as well.
Holly: It really has, yeah.
Caroline: Reflecting on your journey as a business owner, what would you say are some of the challenges and rewards?
Holly: Yeah, I’d say time is the challenge and the reward, in the sense that working in school, obviously holidays were a big plus. But actually, there was no flexibility, where now the flexibility to build my business around family. I’ve got, both of my children were born through IVF, and it took us 10 years for the first and five years for the second, so it hasn’t been an easy journey. So I do want to attend the sports days and the nativity plays, etc. So having that flexibility has been really key. The challenges around boundaries, I suppose. It’s so hard to say no to stuff when it’s your business and everything’s so exciting and shiny and you want to get involved in everything. And it’s so hard to… It is so hard to say no. That’s definitely my biggest challenge. I do… And I’m really glad that I do. I wouldn’t want to… Everything that I’m involved in, I love doing. But there is going to come a point where I’m going to have to say no to something. And I am dreading that moment.
Caroline: Because you just want to help people so much.
Holly: Yeah, that’s it. That’s it. And really, I want to be doing… Where do I want to be spending my time? I suppose at some point I’m going to have to expand and take some people on to do some of the things that are taking me away from the training and from the campaigning and the talking and the actually passing over of the skills and the education where at the moment the bookkeeping would definitely be a challenge. That’s like… I think most people’s least favourite parts of business. Sorry to my accountant because she’s brilliant. But yeah, but I love it. I am so glad that I took the plunge to be my own boss and to start this journey. And when you get feedback from people when you’ve… I mean, I had an amazing piece of feedback the other day, and it just came… I’ve been working with an organisation and helping them to design their own suicide training. So they’ve got a team of mental health first aiders and suicide first aiders that I’ve been lucky enough to train, but they have a huge amount of volunteers who access their services, and it’s just not cost effective or time effective for them to train everybody up in mental health first aid and suicide first aid. So they wanted to create just a bit of a short intro, so they’d have enough to support. And I worked with them and developed that with them and helped them design it, and now they’re running it and delivering it themselves. So it’s so sustainable for them.
Caroline: That’s a great idea though isn’t it? What a wonderful concept.
Holly: Yeah, that’s it, because I think that’s it, big organisations. There is an investment to be made in this training and it’s vital, but everybody needs to have some awareness and it’s not practical to have every single person trained in those intensive courses, if you like. But I have a piece of feedback that just said, the lady that’s now delivering it said that it was used. A volunteer had attended the training that she’d delivered that I’d helped design. And she was sat in a room next door and she could hear something going on. And she just listened in. And it was this gentleman who was the volunteer actually saying to someone, I recognise that you don’t see myself at the moment. Can I just ask if you have any thoughts of suicide? And they said, Yes. And an intervention came about and they helped that man. And that man came to see her to thank her for delivering that training because he said he never would have had the skills or the courage to ask that question before that training. And I just think that’s why I do what I do. That moment right there, absolutely that.
Caroline: Yeah. And now people listening to this will hopefully feel a little bit more equipped to have these conversations as well.
Holly: Yeah, definitely. Definitely.
Caroline: So we’re recording this and it’s literally just coming up for World Mental Health Day. You spoke a bit about some of the projects and things you’ve been working on. Is there anything else coming up that would be interesting that you want to share?
Holly: Yeah. So there’ll be some dates really soon for online mental health first aid and suicide first aid courses coming soon, which people are very welcome to join on if they wanted to. And the government have announced 10 million pounds that I’m not getting all of that, don’t worry, but I am getting a part of that to…
Caroline: Oh, amazing.
Holly: Yeah, to go into the community to deliver a fully funded suicide first aid training in our communities at the moment in Liverpool City region, but Liverpool today, the world tomorrow. And so that is happening. I’m so excited. So we are going to be able to… Obviously, the training has to cost money because everybody, I’ve got mortgages to pay and suicide first aiders spends such a huge amount of time making this course what it is. Of course, there is a cost, but I hate the fact sometimes that cost is the barrier. Everybody needs these skills. So to be able to really target these funded places, perhaps in demographics that might not otherwise be able to access the training is just incredible. I’m so excited. So that’s exciting. That’s happening very soon
Caroline: Well, congratulations for that as well, yes.
Holly: Yeah, thank you.
Caroline: And the online offer as well I think is really great. So we’ll definitely leave some links to that too.
Holly: Yes, thank you. Awesome.
Caroline: In this podcast, it’s all about creating kind spaces and exploring what that means to people. I always like to ask people, What’s your go-to thing? If you are feeling bit out of balance, how do you inject a little bit of joy into your life or what makes you feel better?
Holly: Well, for me, music is a massive, massive, you know… I want to say mood lifter, but actually music just takes you where you need to be sometimes. I’ve got songs that when I need to have a bit of a release and maybe cry it out or anything, there’s music that will take me there. And then when you need to just lift your spirits, you can have a little dance around the kitchen. So I am often found singing at the top of my lungs really badly. I’m definitely a choir singer, not a solo singer, we’ll just put that out there. But I love it and I adore singing. So I will often sing at the top of my lungs, in the car, in the kitchen. Yeah, I’ve got some brilliant things on my playlist that probably everybody would recoil on horror, bit of Gina G, bit of Dido.
Caroline: Do you know what? This is another thing we have in common. Oh, my goodness. I sing everywhere.
Holly: Oh, amazing.
Caroline: I went to my daughter’s parent’s evening then last week. The teacher was like, Yeah, she’s great. She’s getting on really well and she’s a clever girl and he’s like, Yeah, but she just sings all the time. I was like, Oh, dear.
Holly: Yeah, that’s it. Another thing you passed on.
Caroline: Yeah, so yeah, that’s it. There’s worse things she could do.
Holly: Oh, definitely. Definitely. And so music is one. What I also learnt, I was really lucky actually. A couple of years ago, I went through a bit of a difficult time, and a friend of mine’s sister is a therapist and she said, Would you mind being my guinea pig? And I think which is just her nice way of saying, You don’t seem yourself, so come and you’ve looked after enough people, so I’m going to help you a little bit. And she gave me a course of havening. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of havening.
Caroline: I have heard of it, but I don’t really understand how it works.
Holly: Oh, it’s amazing. So it’s so simple. So I think in it’s creation, and I might be wrong here, but I know that this is very much based around trauma and helping people through trauma. And you do it with a practitioner, but actually you can do it as a self-help tool as well. So everybody can learn it. And it’s so simple. So it literally is from your shoulders to your elbows. You just give yourself a bit of a hug and rub down.
Caroline: Is it a bit like tapping then? Cos I’ve tried tapping…
Holly: A bit like tapping, it’s very similar.
Caroline: I really found it really beneficial.
Holly: Yeah. So you can touch your face and touch your hands as well. So there’s a few moves that you can do, but really in the whole just give yourself a stroke. And while you’re doing that, what you’re doing is you’re releasing like Delta waves in the brain that are the slowest brainwaves that are the most restorative. You know when you have that gorgeous deep sleep and you feel great, it’s the Delta waves that make you feel amazing, and you can artificially create them. So I did therapy using havening where I talked about my difficult experiences and it could be worked through them. But actually, sometimes if I am feeling a bit stressed or feeling a bit emotional, I will. I will actually dance around my kitchen whilst doing it, but not everybody has to do that. But just to sit there and give yourself a bit of a hug for about six or seven minutes, it will just start to slow down your amygdala, your fear centre, and make you feel a bit better.
Caroline: What a wonderful tip to share with people. Thank you.
Holly: You’re very welcome.
Caroline: Thank you, that’s amazing. Cool, so we will wrap up just by making sure that people know where to find you. So have you got a favourite place that you like to connect with people?
Holly: Yeah, LinkedIn, I’m on LinkedIn as Holly Clark, Bloom in Mind, or on my website, bloominmind dot co dot UK. I’m on all social media platforms, so you can find me wherever you like. But it would be great to connect with some of you. So thank you for listening and giving me the opportunity. It’s been so nice. I can’t actually believe we’ve been chatting for nearly an hour. It doesn’t seem that long.
Caroline: I know it seems to have flown by. I know.
Holly: Yeah, so thank you.
Caroline: I’m going to check that I’ve not missed anything on my notes. Oh, yes, my last thing that I’ve written here was about the links. So before we came on the call, we were having a chat about places that we can signpost people to. Could you tell people a little bit about the Shout service? Because that one sounded really, really beneficial.
Holly: Yes. Yeah. So there’s a number of incredible services. But just to share with you a couple. Number one, the Samaritans, 116, 123, they’re open 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days of the year, and 366 in a leap year, and you can call them. They’re not just for people in a suicidal crisis, they’re there for anybody who needs support. They’ll even help you in supporting somebody else, which I think most people don’t know that they would do that and they would. So that’s them. And then also, Shout is if you look down the middle of your telephone keypad, 25852. Well, we’ll share the link properly there, through the middle there. And Shout are a text service, so very similar to the Samaritans in that it’s 24/7, but you just text them. So you can be sat on your couch thinking, I’m feeling a certain way and I need some help. And no one has to know. You can just by yourself just text and someone trained to offer that support will text you back and you can have that dialogue going there. So there is support out there. You are never alone. There’s always people that will help you. And you just got to know where to find it. Actually, Caroline, as well, I should just share the Hub of Hope. The Hub of Hope is another incredible resource. Jake Mills is a Liverpool lad, but literally I’ve delivered quite a lot of courses in Scotland recently, and we’ve checked and the coverage in Scotland is pretty good as well. But the Hub of Hope, it’s an app you can download or you can do it on your desktop as well. You can do it wherever you like. The hub of hope dot co dot UK, you put in your post code and it tells you what local support services are nearby you. You can filter it based upon… So you’ll have lots of support groups. It might be alcoholics, anonymous, or it could be a women’s support service. It could be a refugee service. It could be one for domestic abuse, anything. You can filter it by the needs.
Caroline: Amazing, I will definitely take a look because we have a similar thing with the Local Information System for Scotland.
Holly: Oh, brilliant.
Caroline: So the ALISS system, we’ve been working with the team at ALISS to make that information accessible on the Alexa devices.
Holly: Oh, amazing. Oh, there we go.
Caroline: It sounds like a similar thing.
Holly: Yeah, definitely.
Caroline: Helping to signpost people to support in their communities. Yeah. Yeah.
Holly: Yes. Oh, yeah. You’ll have to get linked in with Jake Mills, he’s a super cool guy to have a chat with.
Caroline: Definitely. Definitely. We should catch up more often. Definitely. Definitely.
Holly: Definitely.
Caroline: This has been so nice. Thank you. Thank you so much, Holly, for giving me so much of your valuable time. The work you do is just amazing. If we can help to make it easier to have these kinds of conversations and help people to get the support that they need through this podcast, then I’m just delighted. So =tThank you for helping me, Holly.
Holly: Thank you so much. It’s been an absolute pleasure. Thank you. Thanks so much.
Caroline: I’m a big believer in taking a negative or traumatic situation and finding the good. I remember when I got married, my stepdad gave a speech and said that “if it wasn’t for bad luck, we’d have no luck at all”. Of course, it can take time to find the good and everyone’s journey through grief or loss is different, but fundamentally is it hope and our human spirit and connection that guides us through difficult times. I really do hope that my chat with Holly has helped you, wherever you are in life’s journey, and that it helps you to make a difference in the lives of those around you.
If any of this has resonated with you, I would love to hear from you! Pop me an email at caroline@tltechsmart.com or message me on social media @createyourkindspace
It would also mean a lot to me if you could rate and review this podcast as it helps other people to discover our content.
