Why Neil Bebber Believes in the Power of Bedtime Stories

An area that particularly fascinates me is the crossover between the tech and the creative world. Collaborating and experimenting with new ideas can unlock huge potential, that’s why I’m so delighted to introduce today’s guest, Neil Bebber. An award-winning writer and truly inspirational example of turning a passion into a whole new career.

In our chat, we look not only at this intersection and the innovative ways that technology and the creative arts are supporting wellbeing but we also get a peek behind the scenes at what it’s like to be a writer and the mental health challenges.

Timestamps:

• 00:01:26 How did Neil Bebber become a writer?
• 00:05:04 Where did the idea for short stories for Stressed Grown-ups come from?
• 00:08:35 What is interactive storytelling on Alexa?
• 00:10:44 What are the wellbeing benefits of immersive theatre and voice technology?
• 00:13:19 What inspires Neil’s writing?
• 00:17:21 What was it like doing a masterclass at BBC Hay Festival?
• 00:19:05 Failure and saying yes
• 00:22:16 Writing is about conversations and listening
• 00:23:22 Challenges to being in a creative profession, coping with rejection
• 00:29:16 Innovating in the online dating world through gaming
• 00:32:06 What’s coming up next for Neil?
• 00:34:01 Inviting the Kindspace community to shape the next bedtime story in the collection
• 00:37:10 What does creating kind space mean to Neil?
• 00:39:41 How to get in touch and find out more about Neil’s work?

Links:

The Grey Hill – Theatre Library: just say the magic words “Alexa, enable the gray hill”. See here for more info https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0C69T187F/

Hay Festival: https://www.hayfestival.com/home

Elizabeth Day – How to Fail: https://amzn.to/45XXxMG

Kindspace on Alexa: just say the magic words “Alexa, open Kindspace”, if you have the Echo Show 15, you might need to say "Alexa, open the Kindspace skill” to get it to open. See here for more info: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08MJDV5RT/

The Kindspace Bedtime Stories: https://createyourkindspace.com/sharing-our-human-experiences-through-stories/

Neil’s website: https://www.goodwordsanddesign.com/

Transcript:

Caroline: Welcome Neil to the Create Your Kind Space podcast.

Neil: Thank you.

Caroline: To kick off, it would be so wonderful if you could share a little bit about your background and what led you to become a writer.

Neil: Wow, okay. This is normally the story I bore people with the first time I meet them, so I suppose this is appropriate really, isn't it? I was, from quite an early age, I was a graphic designer. I didn't I train through the conventional means. I didn't go to university. So I did a, what was a youth training scheme a very, very long time ago. I did printing at college and I managed to get a day release, or like a one day a week release to work in a graphic design company. And I learned graphic design that way. I learned graphic design on the job. And I'd been doing it for some time. I'd probably been doing it for 20 years or so. And I went to see a play. I went to see a short play competition, at the Sherman Theatre in Cardiff. And I was really taken by how affected the audience was by the performances, by the words, and also how I found the whole thing so immersive, really, and so personal. And I actually thought, I was so deluded at the time, I thought, I fancy having a go at that. I think I could do that.

Caroline: Aw, that’s so amazing.

Neil: So I entered that competition. Yeah, well, I entered the competition. I wrote a 10 minute play for the following year. And it won through to the heats and then it won all over the heats and then it won the final. And then from there, I was commissioned by two production companies and I was commissioned to write two full length plays. And then those plays were reviewed in the Guardian and it all felt like something of a weird dream.

Caroline: Ah, that’s amazing. That's so surreal, yeah, to have gotten to that point. Yeah, not had any expectations.

Neil: Yeah, yeah. And it just sort of happened really, which sounds at times makes me feel like it's incredibly disrespectful in terms of people who write for a living have qualified to write for a living. For me, it was more of a passion, and I've learned along the way and I keep learning and I keep going to theatre and reading more books. And cinema, I think it sort of helps educate me in terms of storyline and all of the online courses and resources that are available just make me a better writer. But I'm always looking to write the next thing that has even more of an impact.

Caroline: Oh, I love that. I think that's really inspirational for people to hear as well. That you know, that it's never too late to follow that dream and be inspired. So I love that.

Neil: No, absolutely not, no. And I think there is something in that maybe, probably even in your 30s, there's that sense that you're sort of written off really. My parents sort of had in mind for me to work in a bank and they came from that mentality that you were, once you had a job, you were in that job and it was a job for life. And then you had a job for life and a pension. I think that the environment, the employment environment's changed, the work environment's changed now. And yeah, I think it's, it's a different mentality.

Caroline: Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. Being someone who's also gone through a crazy career pivot, I can totally relate with that. So one of the reasons that I really wanted to have you on the show as our very first guest was to talk about your bedtime stories, which have really inspired me. And so, I would love for you to share what actually inspired you to start writing your stories for stressed out grownups, which was a series that you did during lockdown. If you could tell people a bit about the bedtime stories and the inspiration behind that, that'd be ace.

Neil: Yeah, of course. It was the long, I mean, this sounds like the opening to a book or something. It was the long winter lockdown of discontent. And I think it was that winter lockdown that seemed to stop and then start again and then stop again. And I was in a co -working space, a feminist co -working space. I had a desk. Because of all the rules and regulations in place, it could only be me in the office. So I was starting at eight in the morning and finishing at 10 at night and just pretty much creating a body of work and using that time, that sort of lockdown time as a way of creating more content, really, and immersing myself in my writing. And then in amongst all that, there was, I had a call, actually a couple of calls from friends, but one call particularly about a friend of mine who wasn't able to sleep and they were really struggling mentally that they couldn't sleep and they couldn't find anything that helped them sleep. And they tried everything, all the online resources. But because the world seemed sort of very upside down, it seemed a difficult environment for people just to find a way to relax. So I'm a bit of a, where there's a need, I'll sort of dive in. I'll always sort of wade in and help, sometimes even if my help isn't wanted. But on this occasion, it turned out to be, I think, quite productive.

I wrote a short story that I thought, if it were to be read out by a professional actor and produced professionally, would help people maybe sleep or at least relax. And I spoke to a few actor friends and they said, well, why don't you do it? Why don't you do the voice? So I agreed to do the voice and then I spoke to a producer friend and said, is there any chance you'd like to produce it? And he said, well, you know what you're doing. Why don't you produce it? So that's what I did. I wrote the first short story, Across the Universe, and then narrated it, actually in a wardrobe, surrounded by clothes hanging up and a duvet to try and to make the sound quality better.

Caroline: I'm laughing because I'm in my wardrobe.

Neil: [laughing]

Caroline: We've talked about this before.

Neil: We did, yeah.

Caroline: I know, I love that. That is so beautiful. And the fact that it's been able to help so many people through a really difficult time, it's just wonderful. Yeah, so we've actually, we have known each other for a while now. So, for the benefit of our listeners, perhaps you could expand a little bit on how we met each other, how our paths crossed?

Neil: I think it was, I'm sure that it was another, it was another lockdown project. I was working on a multiple choice. It was such a long way to describe it. It's the first, I think it was the first at the time, Alexa, oh, she's just kicked in. I wish I hadn't said that now.

Caroline: Oh, fine.

Neil: So now you can hear the voice. I mean, there could be all sorts of trademark issues now, but anyway, you know, she's not a real person, right?

Caroline: No.

Neil: Or is she? Who knows? She's a person in a room. Yeah, I was writing an audio and navigated, I'm not gonna say her name, but that navigated short story. It was a multiple choice short story about a man who had decided to change his life, move somewhere completely different. And the audience had a choice of landlady that he moved in with. So the audience had a choice in this interactive story. But I don't think it had been done before. And the production company I was working with knew you as being a bit of an expert in terms of making these sort of things happen.

Caroline: All things Alexa, yeah.

Neil: All things, yeah. Again, I'm not saying the word because it's just gonna kick in again. But it sort of went from there really. I think we had contact through you making the short story happen and creating the skill, which I still don't entirely understand what that is. But I sound as though I know what I'm talking about because I know the term at least now. But you created the skill to make it happen.

Caroline: So, if people don't know what skills are. They're like voice applications that work on your smart speaker. So kind of similar to how you get apps on smartphones. And it just brings extra functionality to what your Alexa device can do. So not everything's built by Amazon, which I think a lot of people don't realise.

Neil: No, they don't.

Caroline: But it’s an exciting space to be in and kind of expanding the boundaries of our creativity and you know experimenting with new things. So it's been really fun actually to work together on that project. Yeah, so if anyone wants to check that one out, it's called The Grey Hill. It's going to be a library of different Theatre productions. So some things which are immersive, like this one from Neil, and then other things that just help people to get a bit of escapism and also to experience things that they might not be able to, you know go to the theatre because it's expensive and sometimes there's not things on in your local area. So another really lovely thing for people to get some wellbeing benefit from as well, hopefully.

Neil: Yeah, I think there are a lot of reasons. The sort of the wellbeing aspect I think is great and also familiarising people with theatre, certainly interactive theatre, and that there are other things, other ways of educating and entertaining yourself other than staring maybe at a screen. But yeah, I mean, sometimes it's nice to close your eyes and let a story play out in your head. And it's quite meditative. I actually said the word, I can't believe I said it because normally I stumble over that word, but being able to just lie on the sofa with your eyes closed and maybe do a multiple choice story or listen to a short story for stressed grownups or just listen to a breathing exercise. It's incredible the difference that makes to your mental health, I think.

Caroline: Yeah, and I think the lovely thing about the story that you've written for The Grey Hill, it follows the character Jake and all his trials and tribulations of choosing a landlady. I could not choose one of those landladies. They're all awful choices. So it's like watching a car crash, but you feel so much empathy for him. He's a really endearing character and I'm really excited to find out what happens to him. Oh, bless. So yeah, definitely check it out because it will make you laugh and it will definitely bring a smile to your face, yeah. Which is lovely. Yeah, and then leading on from that piece of work that we did together, we decided to collaborate on a new thing for our Kindspace app. So we have an app called Kindspace, which is filled with lots of tips and advice to help you stay well. And we also have interactive audio activities. And one thing that I was really keen to bring in was bedtime stories. So when I found out how amazing your writing skills were and that you already had a collection of bedtime stories, it just seemed like the perfect opportunity to work together.

Neil: Yeah, it was meant to be, definitely.

Caroline: Yeah, wonderful. And the stories, I think what's really struck me about the collection of bedtime stories is how much you know there's bits of nostalgia in there. There's bits of human connection. It's really delving into you know a lot of things around our lives and how we live, but it's also a nice, short, kind of relaxing experience as well. And I wondered if there were any personal anecdotes or experiences that kind of influenced those stories and how you write. And I don't know if there's any that you can share.

Neil: Yeah, I mean, just in terms of, I think on a general level, a little bit of me in all of those stories. And not necessarily, but I suppose I wouldn't, in many respects, I wouldn't point out specifics, but there have been times when I've been sitting with a friend or with a partner at a theatre production and a line is uttered by you know one of the actors and they just turn to me and say, I said that, I can't believe you've used that. But there's something of me, of my experiences, I think in all of those stories, somewhere interwoven. Because I think to create, to create something that an audience has empathy with, you have to have been through something. That could be good or bad. And I think the more life experiences you've had, good and bad, the more likely you are to be able to connect with an audience. Because you might not necessarily refer to specific to incidents that they might relate to, but there's a theme. Through the short stories for stressed grownups, there's things of love and loss and adventure and yearning and all of those, all of those emotions. So I suppose without, I wouldn't say necessarily I'll be able to give you a personal anecdote, but I would say that my personal experiences have influenced every one of those stories and made it more, hopefully more relatable.

Caroline: Oh, that's so nice. And I am actually feeling like that resonates with what we've done with Kindspace as well, in terms of how much of myself and my husband Thomas's experiences are weaved into that, but not in a, not in a direct way. I think it's more indirect in that, we've been quite careful with the language that we've used and try to bring or sprinkle some joy in things which are sort of calm and uplifting, but all through our own kind of deep understanding of there's a lot of crap that life throws at you. Like honestly, we as human beings, we go through so much, but at the same time, the parts of our lives that we maybe feel are more negative, they allow us to enjoy the good times more and appreciate that more.

Neil: Yeah, that's right.

Caroline: You would never change those things, but I totally get what you mean in that you've kind of inherently got that understanding and empathy and that comes into the way that you write, which is so nice.

Neil: Well, episode, I think it's episode four, Peak, which is about an old lady who climbs to the top of a mountain, having made a promise to her husband who's no longer with her. I remember a couple of my friends who'd listened to it saying, are you sure that's going to be something that somebody wants to listen to before they go to sleep? But I'd sort of disagree in that what it does, it gives anybody who's been through that experience some maybe some comfort or some peace in some way.

Caroline: Yeah

Neil: They're not necessarily upbeat, but they are hopefully uplifting.

Caroline: Yeah, it's something that people can relate with if they have had a similar situation or maybe missing a loved one and they can see how poignant a moment like that would be to kind of honour someone's memory. So I think that that does make sense. Cool, so moving on a little bit, you've been so busy lately, I know from looking at your LinkedIn and social media. So you recently did a workshop at the BBC Hay Festival, which looks like it was amazing. I wish I had been there. It would be great for people listening if you could maybe share some insights from that and maybe walk us through some of your writing process and how you go about developing your stories.

Neil: Well, in terms of what I presented at Hay Festival or in terms of just the general practice of things?

Caroline: Either or, I mean, it'd be great to hear more about the festival, because honestly, when I looked at the posts online, it looked like you were having a party.

Neil: Yeah, it was. I think it was one of the, well, not probably, one of the most memorable experiences of my life, really. The BBC Academy approached me about the possibility of being on a panel to talk about interactive storytelling. And I thought, yeah, I could do that. I can talk about interactive storytelling. It's pretty much what I do. That won't be a problem. And then somehow, I don't quite remember how it happened, but it was probably over the course of an email exchange. They asked me if I'd be willing to do a 45-minute masterclass all on my own instead.

Caroline: Amazing

Neil: That sounds, I mean, there were people there who just do these things for a living and were not phased by it at all. But I think part of the reason writers write is because they don't want to be front and centre. They want someone else to say their words. You know there's an element of relishing that privacy and that isolation. So, when somebody said to me, well, the BBC Academy said to me, which was an even bigger pressure in many respects, you know, we'd love for you to do this, and it being at Hay Festival, the home of literature. Yeah, it was terrifying. And the day before I did it, I was going through my script thinking, I know I can do this, but if I don't do it, that's okay, because it's been a brilliant experience in my life. And 10 minutes before I left the hotel to go to do it, I recorded a video of myself. I was in a hotel room talking to myself on my phone, but saying that if you mess it up, it doesn't matter, because you've had this experience, and you'll learn from it, and you'll learn if you want to do it again or if you'd rather not do it again. But until you do it, until you let yourself try something different and fail at it, you won't know that it's not for you.

Caroline: And it's not really failure, is it? It’s, its, Elizabeth Day calls it data acquisition.

Neil: Okay, right, that's an interesting way of looking at it, actually.

Caroline: Yes.

Neil: Yeah, if not this. Yeah, it's like going, I don't know, going for a road trip, and you drive into a cul-de-sac. You don't stay in that cul-de-sac. You pull out of it, and then you find a different route. So yeah, that was, it was 45 minutes. That was two, the first two minutes were out of terror, and the rest of it was an absolute joy. I mean, the audience danced me out of my own masterclass, which was pretty amazing, actually. In terms of sort of writing, what I've realised through, to make a career in writing, you have to say yes to everything. That works for me. It might not work necessarily for other people, but if somebody calls me and asks me if I could create a script for a new AR exhibition stand or something like that, then I say yes. If somebody asks me if I can write a multiple-choice audio play, I say yes. If somebody asks me if I can write a short story to help people sleep, or a screenplay, or a radio play, I say yes. So what that does, it means that I'm constantly learning. My day job never gets boring. But also, it's just interesting to learn different ways of storytelling, different routes, different ways of presenting, sometimes working with a group. Like last year, I devised some plays with two different theatres. One of the theatres I worked with was the Signet Theatre in Exeter, and they had an end-of-year group who wanted to do a play, and we devised a play together. The idea would be, I think initially, that it would be a showcase, but it ended up playing at German Street Theatre in London and exposing those students to a much wider audience, potentially, than what might have previously been the case.

Caroline: Amazing.

Neil: Yeah, so yeah, it's just, for me, it's about constantly finding different ways of telling stories and always improving on what I do, always trying to make sure that what I write is somehow, even if it's for a corporate project, to make it emotionally resonant.

Caroline: Yes, yes, that's great advice, great advice. And there is inspiration everywhere. I have another friend who's a writer, and she also likes to take photographs, and she kind of uses them as inspiration for different stories.

Neil: That’s lovely.

Caroline: So she's a children's author and really creative and lovely, so that's another way to find some inspiration. It's everywhere, it's not just in literature, isn't it?

Neil: It is, yeah.

Caroline: And like you were saying, it's like human experience as well, yeah?

Neil: Yeah, yeah, whatever it is, just sitting next to someone at a, I don't know, at a bus stop, actually striking up a conversation. For me, that's the most inspiring thing. I'm due to start guest lecturing at Marjon University in Plymouth from, I think, from January next year. And what I want to talk to the students about is that writing is mostly listening. It's listening to conversations, overhearing things in pubs, getting people to talk about their lives to you. Yeah, and that's where a lot of inspiration, I think, comes, for me, is from just meeting people, asking questions.

Caroline: Awesome, cool. So I wanted to reflect a little bit on some of the challenges of this sort of a profession. I'm an entrepreneur now, and I think there's some similarities with rejection, and feelings of, you know, you pour your heart and soul into something, and it maybe doesn't necessarily pan out the way that you wanted. So maybe you could reflect on some of the challenges, but also some of the rewards as well.

Neil: Sure, well, I think writing is, again, as a profession, it's sort of endlessly challenging. It's challenging in terms of telling the stories in the first place and making them as effective as possible, but also trying to get other people to buy into your passion. It could be a film producer, it could be a theatre company, it could just be an online audience where you've put something out into the world and you want somebody to go and listen, because there is so much content, video, audio, books, audio books, there's content everywhere. Part of the challenge is to make people, well, try to encourage people to believe that yours is worth listening to amongst all of the other choices they have to make. So, yeah, for me, I think 95% of being a writer, and this sounds incredibly depressing, and it really isn't, but 95% of being a writer is rejection. So you have to be pretty, I think you have to be pretty sturdy and made of stout stuff, because if you write a play, or you write a screenplay, or you write a sitcom, and you send it out, you'll find that probably 95% of the answers are very, or are no. Actually, I say 95% of the answers, 10% of people actually get back to you. Of those 10%, nine people say no. of And those 10%, one person might say, have you got something else we could read, because I really like this. And I think that's partly why I say yes to everything, because you're saying yes to 100 projects, knowing that maybe only five of them will eventually come off and actually happen.

Caroline: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense, yeah.

Neil: Yeah. So, yeah, it's a tough business, but I think if you stick at it, and it's a passion, if you can afford to pay the bills as a result of doing what you do, and have a little bit left over, then it's the best profession. For me, it's the best profession in the world.

Caroline: And maybe reflecting on the kind of rejection piece, what is your sort of strategy, or how do you approach that from your kind of mental health point of view? Is there anything that helps you, like in terms of how you kind of objectively look at feedback?

Neil: Yeah, it's strange, actually, because if people provide feedback, that's great. Previously, I've had friends come to see my theatre plays, and I always say to them, it's probably some deep-seated insecurity that makes me say it in the first place, but what I say to them is, if you think it's crap, I hope I can say crap, but that's fine as long as you tell me why you think it's crap, because I think that's the best way of learning from rejection or rejoining, just learning generally is, if you make a mistake, knowing how or why you might have made that mistake. So yeah, when I'm turned down through the writing, I often ask if somebody might give me an idea of why it didn't work out, or why the play or the screenplay wasn't accepted. That helps then to make it a better thing if I do get good feedback.

But I also, and again, it sounds cynical, but it really isn't. I don't expect it to work out. I don't expect people to say yes. So it's almost preparing yourself and knowing that the world is a tough place, not a bad place, but it's a tough place sometimes to live in, and not everything will work out, and we have no control over our destiny because so much of our lives and our future are dictated by everything that surrounds us, all the variables, and there are so many. There's an infinite amount of variables in the world. So if I go into something thinking, there's a chance this might happen, but there's a very good chance it won't happen, then when it doesn't, I don't feel too crushed. I think, okay, that's the world, and this isn't the right time or place, but it will happen. So there seems to be some innate belief or positivity in me that makes me want to keep knocking at that door.

Caroline: Yeah, that's great advice, and I think as well, you're talking about your kind of expectations at the outset. I think that really helps. I think I often, when we're applying for things, it's often the things that I least expect, and then I'm like, how did that happen? Because I didn't have an expectation. I actually was like, there's, like you say, like a 1% chance that this is actually gonna be successful, and then you have to convince yourself that it's actually worth the effort to still go for it, and that can be really tough. So it's lovely how you've explained that it’s just perfect.

Neil: Yeah, it's just, it's not, if you love doing it, you're not deluded, and if you do have a passion, then you just keep trying, yeah.

Caroline: Cool. So I would love to know, as we're kind of moving into the sort of the end of the discussion, what have you got coming up next? What are your future plans? Is there anything you can actually share with us?

Neil: Well, there is always so much going on. I've got an online dating game coming out called Merge through a company called Richcast. They produce, or they have online, it's an app, a free app that allows you to both play games and to build games, and it's relatively straightforward to use, and I pitched an idea to them about a game based around the dating world, because I did some, very, very briefly did some online dating a couple of years ago, and I thought it would be a really interesting project to approach from a game perspective to help familiarise people with the environment before they chose to dive in, because I knew a lot of people who'd done online dating and struggled with it, struggled with, again, with rejection. I just struggled with the world of sort of a digitised potential love. So yeah, I've written a game, and within that game are eight characters, and you get to speak with those characters, and depending on your responses to them, they give you very real, very real responses back, but I think it's really lovely, the idea that you might win or fail, and it's okay, for me, it's okay to do that within a gaming environment, so then when you go out into the world, you've got some, you're prepared for the highs and lows of online dating.

Caroline: Wow, that's so innovative. I can't believe that, honestly. I don't know what that world is like with online dating, because Thomas and I have been together since I was 17.

Neil: Oh, wow, that's so lovely.

Caroline: Probably, I don't know what would happen if I ever had to approach that, so wow, what a great idea to help familiarise people and make it less scary, and also make sure that they're staying safe as well. I hope that that's a part of kind of what you're thinking about. Yeah, it is. I imagine that that also is a concern for people.

Neil: Yeah, it's a very valid concern, and also the idea of exploring different types of sexuality. So if you're somebody who would not have previously told people that maybe your sexuality isn't how you present, then you can, within this game, you can explore that too. So it helps you sort of discover a little bit about yourself, which, again, I think is really, really important to do that before you go out into the world. Think about who you are and who you want to meet, and it sort of prepares you for that.

Caroline: I'm so glad that you shared that with us. That sounds really, really exciting. You will need to keep us posted.

Neil: I will. It's called Merge. As soon as it's released, I'll send you the link so you can potentially, you can share it with other people if you'd like. Also, the masterclass that I did at Hay Festival, I'm presenting that to a group of young journalists in Birmingham next year as part of a young, I think it's a young journalist festival. So I'm doing that for the BBC Academy again.

Caroline: Yes, yes, and good you can reuse that content, and you could be a TEDx speaker with that.

Neil: You never know. I mean, that would be a dream. Hay was a dream. To do a TED Talk would be, you know, that would finish it off. That would be fine. I could do a TED Talk and then go to the top of a mountain in a lightning storm and be struck by lightning, and I'd be perfectly happy. That would be absolutely brilliant.

Caroline: Life's mission fulfilled.

Neil: Yeah, that's it, that's, yeah, sorted. That would be the peak for me. But yeah, I'm also working on a TV screenplay for a new, like a new drama called Eight, which again might have an interactive aspect to it. So I'm speaking with a couple of production companies about that at the moment. And also in the meantime, I'm trying to find an agent because I had an agent and my agent retired, and now I'm looking for a new agent. And it seems since COVID, it's considerably more difficult to get agents to look at work or to get them on board because there were so many new people, new writers who came into the system who had that lockdown period, started to write, became incredibly successful. And yeah, it's trying to find an agent who hasn't got a full book at the moment. So that's my challenge right now. That's my 95% of rejection due to turn into 5% of acceptance. That's what I'm hoping for today.

Caroline: Ah, okay. And just, that's not something I would have thought of in terms of like a knock-on effect, but I guess it makes sense, doesn't it? Yeah. Yes, yes. And also one of the other things, obviously, that you're working on or have been supporting us with is our bedtime stories on the Alexa on the Kindspace app.

Neil: Yeah, there will be a new story. I don't know if I can say any more than that, but.

Caroline: That is the plan, isn't it? I'm very excited that we'll be able to add to the collection that's already there. So yeah, watch this space. So we're hoping to, before the end of the year, publish another story into the collection.

Neil: Yeah, it's exciting. What sort of reaction has there been so far, have you had?

Caroline: I think it's good. I think people, especially because Headspace doesn't have their Alexa skill anymore, people are using it more in the evenings because as well as our short stories, we've also got some really nice journaling prompts that help you to reflect on your day. And it's similar to the stories. It doesn't take long. It's just a few minutes at the end of your day to help make sure that you're looking after yourself.

Neil: Yeah, I wonder if with the new story that you're going to be putting out, if it would be worth putting it to your users about themes.

Caroline: Yes, we could quiz them on what they'd like to see based on their own experiences as well. That's a great idea.

Neil: Yeah, I had some friends, the Clouds, the 10th short story for stressed grownups, featured a couple called Will and Luna, which was actually based on a couple I knew when I lived in Cardiff. And they didn't even know it existed. And then I've just recently shared it with them and just wanted to check with them that it was okay I used their names. I probably should have done that to start with. But thankfully, they love the story.

Caroline: Oh, that's cool.

Neil: Yeah, so I'd like the idea of people providing a name that you can sort of somehow interweave or call the central character by that name.

Caroline: Yeah, gosh, that would be so special. Yeah. I love that.

Neil: Yeah. Well, we'll see. Lots to look forward to.

Caroline: No, amazing, amazing. So it has been an absolute pleasure getting this time with you and me even finding out things I didn't know as well. And thank you so much for being our very first guest.

Neil: Thank you.

Caroline: And also, collaborating with us and bringing all your creative content to people through the smart speakers. I think it's something that for me is so important, because we, I don't know, I did an article or I have an article coming out this week about loneliness.

Neil: Yeah.

Caroline: And I looked at some of the data around that from the Office for National Statistics. And we're on an upward trajectory when it comes to loneliness and the feelings of worry that we're all experiencing. So I really just hope that things like this help people.

Neil: Yeah.

Caroline: And, you know, exploring what kind space means to people. That's one of the main things that we want to do in the podcast series. Yeah. As a kind of parting discussion. It would be lovely for you to share what does kind space mean to you? So do you have any sort of go-to things that help you if you are feeling a little out of balance?

Neil: It's always the sea, always the sea. Or, I mean, if I can't find the sea, just water, open water. Yeah. Last night I was in a wood and on that wood walk, you could walk along a river and every now and again the river would form a pool. And we were swimming last night in a river pool, which was just incredible. And the night before, yeah, we were at a beach where the sun was just setting. And we were the only people in the water. For me, that idea of just treading water in the sea with the setting sun just lighting my face is absolutely my happy place. That's, yeah. You know, like a dog can't wait to go for a walk. I, you know, I can't wait to be in the sea.

Caroline: I'm smiling. That is so lovely. That has become more popular as well, hasn't it?

Neil: Absolutely, yeah.

Caroline: The whole wild swimming in cold waters. It's very therapeutic and great to be in nature.

Neil: If I had a tail, if I had a tail now, I'd be wagging it. Just the thought of being in there, which I probably will be later.

Neil: Wow. Oh my gosh. We have talked about so much, haven't we? And we could probably talk for hours more.

Caroline: Absolutely. Is there anything else that before we go you would like to share or say?

Neil: No, really. I think that, for me, it's important that people get a benefit, some sort of benefit from Kindspace, from the short stories. But I think what's really, really important is that people, if they enjoy it and they benefit from it, that they share it with their friends, with their family, with the wider audience so that other people might get the benefit too. Because I think in a world where there are so many choices, if people really get the benefit from something, sharing it with other people just helps people sort of cut through to what could be useful. So yeah, I'd always encourage people to actively share the things that they enjoy.

Caroline: Yeah, that makes sense.

Neil: Whether it be Kind Space or the short stories. So yeah, I'd ask people to do that.

Caroline: And finally, where can people find you if they're interested to connect or maybe explore some of your other creative writing projects and things that you're working on?

Neil: Okay, well, I've just set up a new website. I've kept it very, very simple. So, it's divided into the words side of things and the design side of things. And the website is www, which I don't even think you need to say anymore, but it's goodwordsanddesign dot com.

Caroline: Awesome, we can pop a link to that as well, yeah.

Neil: Amazing, I'd really, really appreciate that. Yeah, and if anybody's got any questions or ideas, then please do get in touch.

Caroline: Amazing, thank you so much, Neil. This has just been absolutely fab. So yes, we will catch up soon. Thank you.

Neil: Thank you, Caroline, lovely to speak to you.

Caroline: So that was my very first podcast interview. I hope you enjoyed it and it’s maybe inspired you to explore your passions, and take a leap into the unknown. When we started on our journey to creating Kindspace, the leap we took wasn’t intentional and it’s only looking back sometimes that we see how pivotal certain choices we make are. If I have learnt anything so far on this journey it is that we as humans are inherently very resilient and inquisitive. As the podcast series continues, I encourage you to get in touch and share your stories and tips, I’d love to hear from you! Pop me an email at caroline@tltechsmart.com or message on social media @createyourkindspace